GM 2014-03-19 transcript

  If Ric isn't here can you do the voicing, phillipsjk?  hello  sorry I am late  lol speak of the devil  and he shall appear  Whoopa-booga-wooga. I hear that there is a meeting tonight.  That, there is. Started doing the agenda last-minute and Piratepad suddenly returns 504 :P  indeed, Ric is just getting to voicing people  mr TravisMcCrea hi, sorry I'm late  hi  how do I authenicate again? msg RLim your e-mail  mr. Wilson-president  Hello. I'm late ?  noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo  travis has been pretty unstable tonight :/ <XFaCE> :/ tonight? <XFaCE> tonight tonight tongiht <XFaCE> oh hoooooooooo How many for quorum ? <RLim> ping CCitizen <Wilson> he is here. spoke at 17:47 <Wilson> 15 <XFaCE> argh <XFaCE> 2 short <CraigNobbs> mmm... quorum in now 10 <Wilson> soon to be 10 for just that reason There we go. Much better. hey guys, just asking but, do we have a position on "national unity" given the once again crazy situation here in the qc <MHoude> There is typo in topic <MHoude> should be index.php?title not titel <CraigNobbs> afk 5 minutes Topic was too long too. <RLim> is TravisMcCrea on a loop <RLim> ? <Wilson> Officially, no. Speaking personally it would be damn unfortunate if Quebec seperated. Not that I see this as being within the realm of likelyhood. <XFaCE> me neither It's an election, not a referendum! since it is not Pirate Pad, I will probably have to make any requested changes to the Agenda. <MHoude> Maybe a topic for the forums to discuss where we'd like to stand on such an issue. <RLim> dysonsphere: no but my personal take is Pirate Party is for more decentralization which would hopefully make provinces wants to be part of Canada <XFaCE> as wilson has ragequit, I will now take over as acting-leader <XFaCE> Step 1: Build my gold statue <XFaCE> Step 2: Polish said-statue <XFaCE> awww <RLim> if you have Mincome and National drug plan, it works better with bigger country <Wilson> Hello other Wilson_ <Wilson_> sorry, dc'd <XFaCE> uh oh <Wilson> We have quite a conundrum here <XFaCE> We have made quorum \o. <XFaCE> \o/ <MHoude> o/ <Infovorr> A quorundrum. <RLim> one on the queue so we should be good as soon as that is verified <Wilson> I'm the Wilson from #ppau <Wilson_> You freaked me out other Wilson -_- er 14 Made quorum? Oh noes. RLim, i agree, however it is clear that the separatist agenda has little to do with what works best. that said, i just thought i should bring this up as something we should discuss, not to hijack today's GM <RLim> who is the other Wilson_ <XFaCE> if wilson does, we have 15 That is a CATastrophe. Purr. <Wilson_> James Wilson, I was booted <RLim> already 15 <RLim> oh <Wilson> Am I interrupting on something official? <RLim> so which one is the real Wilson <Wilson> The other one <Wilson> Wilson_ <RLim> and you are? <MHoude> Maybe rename to Wilson-PPAU ? OK, let's get the meeting underway then <RLim> oh ic <RLim> lol Any changes to the agenda? <Wilson> Well by that same logic one could say this wilson should rename to Wilson-Canada <Wilson_from_Hom> Howdy Tim <RLim> ok let's approve the quorum change before we lose quorum. lol +1 <Wilson-Canada> I can oblige <Wilson_from_Hom> You know Tim, there's the legend of Harperwasca <RLim> or Wilson-DearLeader Motion: approve agenda as written. I will have to drop off right about 6:30PST, but I should be back by 7:00PST <MHoude> Second i vote yes on the quorum change <Wilson_Castaway> WILLLSOON!!! <Wilson_Castaway> WILLLSOON!!! dysonsphere, one thing at a time please. <RLim> ok #riffraff for non-meeting related stuff i will have to get AFK for 15 min in about 15 min not #canada-riffraff? <XFaCE> and #quebec-riffraff? <RLim> oh sorry ^ If in favor say yes, else, say non <XFaCE> phillipsjk: neigh <XFaCE> Je ne sais pa parlez francais >#canada< vote in progress (2 mins) yes <Infovorr> Yes. <MHoude> Yes <XFaCE> yes <Wilson-Canada> yes. XFaCE, consider it a typo then. <RLim> yes aye <XFaCE> considered a typo - yes aye <XFaCE> not the yes just now, but the fake nos before <XFaCE> so yes <CraigNobbs> yes Carried, 9 in favor. So, last meeting we approved the "Executive Board" election results as published. This was a mistake on my part. Should I just edit the minutes to says "Political Council"? <MononcQc> yes <Wilson-Canada> yes. <MononcQc> agh lag <XFaCE> That question doesn't make grammatical sense <RLim> yes Do you need us to vote for that? <CraigNobbs> ye <CraigNobbs> err yes <CraigNobbs> no to vote <CraigNobbs> yes to correct the minutes OK, fixed. I think we should move to approve the February 26 minutes amended. second <XFaCE> yes to move was about to say no second.. All in favor vote yes, else no. <MononcQc> aye yes <MHoude> yes yes <Wilson-Canada> yes <XFaCE> yes <RLim> yes aye <Infovorr> Yes. <CraigNobbs> yes yes Carried 11 in favor Any Officers reports? <Wilson-Canada> none from the leader <CraigNobbs> none from the VP The Special Meetings did not meet quorum. We also received a request to remove old forum postings. We should consider having a policy on that. <XFaCE> second <CraigNobbs> that is not a motin <CraigNobbs> motion AFK for ~15min That was basicly my report. <RLim> All tax receipts were mailed today. So if anyone wants their tax receipts sooner (e.g. doing taxes this weekend) <CraigNobbs> ok. I'll assume chair <RLim> let me know and I can sent you a pdf copy <RLim> via e-mail <XFaCE> RLim: um, I'm not sure about my membership situation <RLim> XFaCE: no worries <RLim> eventually we might bug people <XFaCE> I haven't paid in years, but also haven't received notifications <RLim> but there's always the join/renew and donate button at https://my.pirateparty.ca Good point. <RLim> We were not really organized until lately <CraigNobbs> XFace, we can help you with that after the meeting or you can email info@pirateparty.ca. <XFaCE> understood <CraigNobbs> any other officer reports? <Wilson-Canada> I think all the officers have spoke <CraigNobbs> ok <CraigNobbs> let's move on then. <CraigNobbs> Old Business <RLim> brb in a minute <CraigNobbs> Approve Political Council and Consitutional Amendment results <Wilson-Canada> second <CraigNobbs> https://my.pirateparty.ca/node/174 <CraigNobbs> we'll give everyone 2 minutes to look those over <XFaCE> Did Frederic get exactly half the votes, or slightly under 50%? <XFaCE> n/m <CraigNobbs> ok <CraigNobbs> any discussion on this? <MononcQc> I'm okay with my 50% :B <CraigNobbs> doesn't seem like there is. <XFaCE> how was approval measured exactly? XFaCE, looks like 5 for/against, the rest abstained <XFaCE> for example, how can wilson have 100%? <CraigNobbs> If you scroll down, it's broken down <MononcQc> you discard abstentions in the % <Wilson-Canada> by being a good guy ;P <XFaCE> Wilson-Canada: lol, I just thought it was funny that 214% voted <CraigNobbs> okay, so there was no discussion <CraigNobbs> I move to vote to accept the results of the elections <CraigNobbs> seconds? <XFaCE> second <Wilson-Canada> second second second he <MononcQc> third <CraigNobbs> Voting open for 1 minute. Vote YES or NO. Motion: To accept the results of the elections. <XFaCE> yes <MHoude> Yes <Infovorr> Yes. yes <Wilson-Canada> yes aye <CraigNobbs> yes Yes yes yes yes <CraigNobbs> 11 votes in favor. Motion carries. Results accepted. <RLim> yes <RLim> that was fast <XFaCE> Congratulations to all elected <Wilson-Canada> I could cry tears of joy. quorum is now 10 <MononcQc> congrats yes! <CraigNobbs> the new positions take affect at the closing of this meeting <MononcQc> also hooray for a leaner quorum, but boo for the need to have lowered it :( <MHoude> o7 <XFaCE> Wilson-Canada: you can go back to plain old wilson BTW <Wilson-Canada> Nah, I'm fine <XFaCE> why did we need to lower it? <XFaCE> There are 15 <XFaCE> we met the original quorum <CraigNobbs> Now to discuss the results of the amendment, to make the quorum 10, instead of the current 15. <MononcQc> because it takes us many months at a time to get 15 sometimes <CraigNobbs> is there any discussion? <Wilson-Canada> barely, we've had quite a number of meetings not make quorum <XFaCE> I say decrease by a smaller interval <MononcQc> for the last meetings, we had to try 2-3 times to get the quorum amendment to be heard in the first place. <XFaCE> perhaps 12 - 13 <CraigNobbs> XFace, the all party vote has already succeeded <XFaCE> oh <XFaCE> well then <CraigNobbs> This is to discuss the validity of the results <Infovorr> Indeed. <XFaCE> ok, where do I see said results? <CraigNobbs> https://my.pirateparty.ca/node/174 <MononcQc> same page as elections vote 8 specifically <CraigNobbs> look at vote #8 <XFaCE> ah I see <XFaCE> yep looks good to me You were supposed to read before voting... ;-) <Wilson-Canada> Regardless, Craig. You have a descision to make as you were elected to two position but party rules do not allow that. <XFaCE> carldebilly: I didn't actually vote <CraigNobbs> Yes, that will be addressed shortly <CraigNobbs> no discussion then <CraigNobbs> I move to vote on accepting the results for the constitutional amendment, in changing the quorum from 15 to 10. Second? <XFaCE> second <CraigNobbs> Voting open: Vote Yes, NO, or ABSTAIN.  Motion: Accept results of the constitutional amendment to make the quorum 10. <CraigNobbs> 1 minute <RLim> yes yes <CraigNobbs> yes <XFaCE> yes <MHoude> yes <Infovorr> Yes. yes yes yes <Wilson-Canada> yes (would have made more sense to confirm both simultaniously but whatever) <MononcQc> yes yes Yes <CraigNobbs> 13 votes in favor. motion passed. <RLim> yay Does this apply immediatly ? ;-) <RLim> yes <MononcQc> woo <CraigNobbs> no <CraigNobbs> it doesn't apply until the end of the meeting <RLim> oh? <CraigNobbs> same as the results from the election <Wilson-Canada> Regardless, next order of business? <CraigNobbs> one sec <CraigNobbs> grabbing a link <XFaCE> have to go AFK now <XFaCE> I relinquish my meeting role as generic party member to, uh, psema4 I have links in the previous meeting minutes ok back <CraigNobbs> Looks like PiratePad is down... give me a minute to get an alternate link Oh, yeah, that is why the agenda is on the wiki. <CraigNobbs> does anyone know of an online text pad like piratpad? The german pirate party has one. piratepad.net <MHoude> http://collabedit.com/s3hwq <CraigNobbs> ok... sorry about the elay <CraigNobbs> here we go There are also pastebin type services <CraigNobbs> Link to Propsed Constitutional Amendment: http://piratepad.net/EIXQx7llVV <CraigNobbs> This is the one that I proposed that will allow someone to serve on both the PC and EB <CraigNobbs> Here is the current Constitution Link: https://wiki.pirateparty.ca/index.php?title=Constitution_2012-06-20 <CraigNobbs> Is there any discussion? <MononcQc> reading <CraigNobbs> ok. We'll give people another few minutes to finish reading <RLim> we need to approve it to sent it to all party ballot <TravisMcCrea> Note that the amendment serves zero purpose other than allowing more authority over the party asserted by Craig Nobbs. <RLim> hi BrentSchaffrick <MononcQc> s/From/In/ when it comes to adding content <MononcQc> Add From is weird! <BrentSchaffrick> hi <CraigNobbs> Welcome back Travis <RLim> so it needs to be approved to be sent to all party ballot <CraigNobbs> correct <MononcQc> sounds good. <CraigNobbs> Any discussion <CraigNobbs> ? <RLim> personally <RLim> I would prefer that the one officer position is not struck out <RLim> you can be PC member and an officer but not 2 positions <RLim> allows other people a chance <RLim> *give <TravisMcCrea> I could understand that, RLim, because it allows less people to fill more roles <TravisMcCrea> while not having one person hold the keys to everything <CraigNobbs> That is true. However, in recent times we've had a lack of volunteers. This would allow those who can and want to fill more than one position to be able to. <TravisMcCrea> CraigNobbs are you saying that if this rule was not passed we would not be able to fill the roles? <TravisMcCrea> The numbers right now looks like we would <CraigNobbs> It quite literally means that exactly <MononcQc> should there be a close regarding that specific issue -- in the event not enough members are participating in the election, a member could hold more than two positions? <MononcQc> more than one position* <CraigNobbs> It should also be noted that the PC and EB handle completely different issues and do not conflict with eachother <Infovorr> Perhaps allow for special elections if the previous election had too few candidates and subsequently more people step up later on? <CraigNobbs> The reason TravisMcCrea is opposed is because he wants to merge the two boards and this motion would negate the reason for doing so. <MononcQc> the other question I'm wondering is if CraigNobbs can't be deputy leader twice, should this fall to the next runner-up (svulliez) ? <TravisMcCrea> MononcQc under the current rules if this were not passed thats how it would be <TravisMcCrea> CraigNobbs they handle very different issues, meaning more authority over more apsects of the party <MononcQc> then if there is no next runner-up, the person can hold more thna one title. <TravisMcCrea> MononcQc yeah but if there were no next runner up it would also mean that only 2 people got elected to the PC <CraigNobbs> no, there are rules in the constitution to handle that scenario <MononcQc> to me it sounds like this would solve both issues -- you can have more than one position, but only if you truly had fewer people with actual support to do it <MononcQc> ah <TravisMcCrea> :P If we only get two people in our PC then we have bigger issues <RLim> MononcQc: under current rule. Craig would need to leave his PC position to be the President <RLim> what I am proposing is simply not revoke officers <RLim> PC member is not officer afaik <TravisMcCrea> RLim normal PC members no <CraigNobbs> Article VII.3 handles that issue MononcQc  https://wiki.pirateparty.ca/index.php?title=Constitution_2012-06-20#VII.3_Vacancies <RLim> so he can be a PC member and also President but if he is elected Leader also then he would have to choose <MononcQc> reading, thanks <TravisMcCrea> if craig was both the deputy leader and president it would do two things: 1 give him his own tie breaking vote <TravisMcCrea> and 2) mean he would hold both leadership positions if the leader stepped down <RLim> oh? then why did he have to quit his PC position before? did he quit a deputy leader position? <MononcQc> and why is it that we don't want to go through that process? RLim, deputy leader is also an Officer position. <CraigNobbs> Yes. Last year, I had to quit the PC to become the VP <RLim> ok. My memory is failing. I thought it was just a PC member position that he have to ive up <RLim> *give up <RLim> should I move to amend then we can cote and move on before we lose quorum <RLim> ? <CraigNobbs> @MononcQc: This allows people who want to help, able to help in several different aspects.  I am willing to work where I'm needed, and as such, the current rules prevent me from doing so. <TravisMcCrea> I don't care if a person is on two boards, I don't want them holding two authority positions <TravisMcCrea> I don't think thats unreasonable <MononcQc> CraigNobbs, right. But we also had runner ups for one of the two positions that could be chosen again through by-elections, don't we? <RLim> Isn;t the purpose of EB is so Leader can concentrate on politics during election <RLim> this way, someone could end up being President and Leader <RLim> *Isn't <CraigNobbs> @RLim: Yes, it could mean that. <TravisMcCrea> MononcQc my suggestion in the past meeting was that we dissolve the two tier system and just have one single board, since we are smaller and need better flexibility and less red tape everywhere. I am nervous that by passing this amendment, people will be more turned off in the future to another amendment basically throwing away the amendment they just passed. <RLim> which bring us back to where we are during last election ^ <RLim> *were <MononcQc> TravisMcCrea, I'm still not sure what is the problem with the current system past that we'll need a second by-election <MononcQc> is this the only issue? <CraigNobbs> no <CraigNobbs> It's that last year, we did not have enough people to fill the EB. I had to switch from the PC to the EB to be able to complete the EB <MononcQc> ah so it's not an issue about *right now*, it's an amendment about something that was a problem before. <CraigNobbs> and could easily be again <RLim> well it will be a problem right now <MononcQc> I'd still prefer to keep as many people as possible on any board as far as I'M concerned, and make multiple-positions a last resort. <RLim> since Craig have been elected to both President and Deputy Leader <MononcQc> svulliez would be free to be deputy leader right now, for example. <MononcQc> would just need a by-election, wouldn't it? <CraigNobbs> no <CraigNobbs> If I were to step down, he would move up <TravisMcCrea> exactly <Wilson-Canada> Just a hypothetical: If you saw someone running for multiple positions, how would you vote? <TravisMcCrea> and technically right now it's not "stepping down" <RLim> no. if CraigNobbs is forced to choose one, he would have to decline one position and the next person automatically assume the post <TravisMcCrea> it's just taking the other position <TravisMcCrea> You don't have the position <MononcQc> then right now there isn't a problem. <MononcQc> we can have Craigs give up deputy leader, give it to Shawn. <MononcQc> but make a plan that if there was no runner up with >50%, then more than one position could be held <RLim> sounds good to me <TravisMcCrea> I like Craig, during the 2015 elections I hope that I am in a position (and have the confidence from the party) to be leader of the party again and have Craig as the president making sure that our party's budget is set and that we are doing things by the books. This isn't about Craig, but rather our need to ensure that we have a good delegation of roles. If for no other reason that a person who thinks they have all the time <TravisMcCrea> in the world doesn't get burned out doing everything. <MononcQc> Either that, or TravisMcCrea's idea being sent to vote. <RLim> what is TravisMcCrea idea? <MononcQc> merging boards There is nobody behind VP if Craig decides on deputy leader. <CraigNobbs> Look. I want to be on the PC to help guide the policy that we're creating and think that I can be helpful in this area. Got to run, will be back (hopefully) by 7:00PST. Until then, I hand my vote by proxy to RLim. Will report back ASAP. <RLim> :P thanks <CraigNobbs> That being said, I don't mind helping in the EB as President or VP. <TravisMcCrea> Then we will find a way to fill the VP position and craig will take the Deputy position <MononcQc> I don't see why CraigNobbs would run for both positions but refuse one of them. <TravisMcCrea> MononcQc because he can't take them both <TravisMcCrea> MononcQc but he was hedging his bets <MononcQc> TravisMcCrea, I mean why he'd refuse VP specifically when there is no runner up <MononcQc> if you're up for both positions, I don't see why you'd give up the one for which there's no runner up to lock the other one <RLim> well we have to put the constitution to all party ballot either way. <CraigNobbs> How about this: We add a line that says that no one person can hold both the President and Leader position, except for interim until a replacement can be elected? <TravisMcCrea> MononcQc well that is his own personal decision though, if he wants to give up VP it's not his fault that there isn't anyone behind him to take it <RLim> So can add another election for VP if needed <MononcQc> TravisMcCrea, agreed. <MononcQc> I hadn't considered the issue :P <CraigNobbs> Actually <CraigNobbs> As I had stated several times over the last year <CraigNobbs> I have been attempting to get this amendment into a meeting with quorum since last February <CraigNobbs> We have had such a failing in making quorum that we haven't been able to do that <CraigNobbs> That's why the quorum amendment was just recently brought up and passed <MononcQc> I am not opposed to sending this to a party vote personally, expecting a decent debate on the topic firsthand <CraigNobbs> And now to fix the remaining issue, I proposed this <TravisMcCrea> CraigNobbs and the disagreement about your amendment which has resulted in lengthy discussions, and no outcome because we are still deciding what the best course of action is and don't want to rush into something just because it will allow you to wear two crowns <TravisMcCrea> It's not as though since February when you first brought this up we have been ignoring it, I know of at least 4 meetings where it has been brought up <CraigNobbs> yes, and each time you attempted (successfully) to delay it <CraigNobbs> I am here only to do what I believe is in the best interest of the Party and I believe that this is <TravisMcCrea> Just me, apparently I single handedly delayed this amendment. Without any other members having concerns wit hit <MononcQc> I'm personally fine with sending it to a party vote, again, if it's prefixed by a decent public discussion (to be linked on the vote form or whatever), and trusting our members to make the decision. <TravisMcCrea> the problem with a public vote is it doesn't have discussion <MononcQc> at some point we can trust our membership <RLim> We can put link to our forum in the ballot <CraigNobbs> This discussion has gone on a fair amount of time now <CraigNobbs> we need to wrap it up ^ <TravisMcCrea> Everyone gets an email, they are told "here is the amendment" and they read it and say "oh that sounds reasonable" <TravisMcCrea> without actually being at these meetings and seeing the problems with it <CraigNobbs> I move to vote to send the amendment to an all party ballot. Second? Second. <TravisMcCrea> I would also say that at a certain point, while we should keep working at bettering the party and getting amendments passed, we cannot hold the confirmation of our candidates out. I don't know when they are suppoed to be confirmed but we can't just keep delaying until CraigNobbs gets the amendment that he wants <MononcQc> I'd like to discuss how that ballot would take place. I'd *love* to have a forum discussion that is public and that members can consult before voting <MononcQc> IRC discussions and mailing list debates aren'T public enough. <CraigNobbs> Vote Open for 1 minute: Vote YES, NO, or ABSTAIN. Motion: to send the amendment to an all party ballot <RLim> and put a summary of the main arguments here <Wilson-Canada> for future reference, Craig: if you were going to be this involved in the debate you should have passed the chair to someone else. <CraigNobbs> YES <MononcQc> ABSTAIN <TravisMcCrea> No - this is being shoved down without discussion <MononcQc> actually: NO <Wilson-Canada> no abstain <MononcQc> I want to discuss the form this would take. no <RLim> no for further discussion <RLim> no for rekabis too yes yes <MHoude> abstain abstain <CraigNobbs> 3 FOR, 6 against, 3 abstain. Motion did not pass. <TravisMcCrea> I want democracy to happen, I want members to vote on this and I want them to be able to make an educated vote. That's all. I don't want to stop any person from having the ability to vote. The thing is, every time we discuss this amendment we come up with new things we need to remove or new things we need to add... and thats great... but it also means that it's clearly not ready yet <TravisMcCrea> And if it is ready, then so be it, but I would like the members to be fully educated on exactly what they are voting on <CraigNobbs> Next order of business. Travis has an notice to give about changing the party name <MononcQc> Member eduction/information is something I'd like as a prerequirement to vote yes on CraigNobbs' amendment too. until then it'd have to be a No for me. i agree with MononcQc <RLim> CraigNobbs: I think he is withdrawing that for now <TravisMcCrea> I actually updated my motion with RLim -- It's my motion that we start a committee which would investigate the notion of a name change for the party. I have commissioned a poll (which is still ongoing) through mechanical turk which polls Canadians asking them about the name of our party. It doesn't actually talk about the Pirate Party per se but asks a few questions based on our platforms. <CraigNobbs> ok <MononcQc> I'm all for data-driven stuff. <CraigNobbs> are you withdrawing the motion then? <TravisMcCrea> These people who were across age, gender, and locational demos who agreed with the Pirate Party platforms were overwhelmingly turned off by the name <Wilson-Canada> Link? <TravisMcCrea> I would like us to investigate a name change, find something that is more appealing to people while still sticking true to our beliefs. <RLim> is that the bribing people to answer your poll question? ;) lol <RLim> 15 cents I think <TravisMcCrea> RLim kinda, but they are being paid regardless of the outcome <MononcQc> To me the poll may not prove a need for a name change, but possibly a need for a different positionning or media approach. But if you change the name, you will loose the result of international effort on that name. <TravisMcCrea> Wilson-Canada the mturk poll results are private and sent to me, but I will have them independently reviewed by someone (probably CraigNobbs if he will, that way there is no concerns for bias) <CraigNobbs> @TravisMcCrea: Are you withdrawing the motion? <MononcQc> The poll is valuable no matter what, but 'name change' isn't the only conclusion to draw from it. <MononcQc> Nevertheless I'm interested in reading more about it. <TravisMcCrea> CraigNobbs I answered that in my first thing <Wilson-Canada> That doesn't exactly help this meeting make an informed descision Travis <MononcQc> So what'S the actual motion? <TravisMcCrea> Wilson-Canada I am not talking about a name change right now, I am suggesting we have a committee which investigates a name change <CraigNobbs> @TravisMcCrea: You can always reissue the notice at a later date. Travis, how did you choose your sample? <Wilson-Canada> I'm talking about the poll results you brought up <MononcQc> TravisMcCrea, what would be the consequences of the results from tha committee? is it binding or informative? <TravisMcCrea> just to be clear lots of people are asking me different things so give me a couple seconds to reply <MononcQc> (at least the lower quorum makes this all easier for the future) <TravisMcCrea> Wilson-Canada yeah, which is fair, but we are talking about the establishment of committee to investigate. Even if I had no polling data right now, the party should always be looking into ways it can better itself and looking for hard data to back up it's positions. We require evidence for our policies why don't we require evidence that our name is good? <TravisMcCrea> MononcQc the committee is purely investigative but would report back to the monthly meetings with data it's found. <Wilson-Canada> A fun little aside: Elections Canada has no objective rules for what party names it allows. Its up to the personal bias of the head of Elections Canada at the time the forms are submitted. I would be more comfortable if more people had input on the survey design and sample selection, to account for control variables, etc. i think until we can all see the data to support the need for a name change we should hold off on forming any committes <MononcQc> TravisMcCrea, if it is non-binding and purely informative, and you put it in the motion, I think I'm ready to support it. <TravisMcCrea> mordecai which we would have if we had a full comittee and not just some guy <MononcQc> mordecai, I think a fair committee would be able to decide on this <TravisMcCrea> Right now any "evidence" I bring up for a name change would have the problems you discuss mordecai because a single person cannot have a good un-bias polling system. This is why I suggest a committee, and this committee does not have to only focus on changing the name, but also providing proof that our current name is good enough. <TravisMcCrea> (while exploring new ones) Okay, I can agree with that. <MononcQc> Only for the sake of putting an end to these arguments I'm up to seconding this. Should the motion contain info re: how to form the committee? That was exactly my problem, having one person create a survey. <TravisMcCrea> psema4 we will be collecting valuable analytics on peoples beliefs about the party. This can be used for purposes outside of a name change Setting up a committee does not require amending the constitution. Are you withdrawing the constitutional amendment motion then? <TravisMcCrea> (including effective campaigning) <TravisMcCrea> phillipsjk yes, I am. understood and would normally agree but i disagree this is the time to do so <CraigNobbs> For the record, The Pirate Party of Canada is based upon the principals of its international brethren. I believe that changing the name flies in the face of the principals that the party was founded on. <TravisMcCrea> psema4 I think in a political party, it's always a good time to be collecting analytics and feedback regarding the party. ok if the committee were not only for a name change i could get behind that <MononcQc> I think we *should* have a vote for the committee, but that we should decide its scope and whatnot first. <MononcQc> otherwise it's vague as hell and won,t give much <TravisMcCrea> CraigNobbs I believe our party is based on evidence based decision making and if we have clear evidence that our name is hurting our ability to promote the causes that are important to us (and our international brethern) then we have an obligation to change it <MononcQc> scope can include: purpose, what to verify, when to report back, who is in there, what the results will mean for the party (informative/binding), etc. or an obligation to educate about the name! <CraigNobbs> TravisMcCrea: We have an oblihation to uphold the principals of this party, even if they are unpopular with some. Personally, I get all cynical when an organization changes their name, but maybe I am weird. <MononcQc> right, the results could give a sign that the name is badly received, but that isn'T a sign it needs a change more than better marketing, unless data actually points that way. +1 right. the name has a purpose and meaning and history. <RLim> phillipsjk: it has the downside of building the brand from square one again <TravisMcCrea> I move that we create an open committee which can be joined by anyone, headed by Travis McCrea (interm), to investigate peoples perceptions about the name "Pirate Party of Canada" in regards to their ability to support the party or be able to vote for the party. This committee will provide it's feedback monthly at the beginning of the meeting. <MononcQc> to me it feels that the committee is something that should be further debated before being put to vote, so that we get a better idea of what it needs to be. the problem is more that people don't understand it <TravisMcCrea> If you like the name, and feel that we should keep it... then you should be comfortable having a committee which will potentially back up your beliefs i disagree with Travis heading the committee. there's an obvious bias <TravisMcCrea> I always like my beliefs to be questioned i agree mordecai <CraigNobbs> @Psema4: I agree <Infovorr> +1 <CraigNobbs> not that I agree with this at all psema4: agreed <TravisMcCrea> I put myself there because it was my idea and I have the initiative, of course if someone else would like to step up that's great. Thats why I put (interm) in parenthesis <MononcQc> interim* <TravisMcCrea> Thanks i don't agree with a committee just for the purpose of the name. a survey should be broader, about the beliefs and the name could be part of it. <CraigNobbs> agreed <TravisMcCrea> dysonsphere like an analyics collecting party? agreed <MononcQc> yeah, analytics party would be freaking sweet I think <CraigNobbs> Survey's can easily be worded in a specific way to get the desired results. Too Google-ly for me <MononcQc> I keep complaining about approaches to marketting and stuff and we have *no* way to get feedback right now. yes travismcrea <TravisMcCrea> I was hoping that this nameing committee would eventually turn into a general analytics committee and figured having an objective at first would make getting the wheels rolling easier. I would be in favour of removing any objectives and just make it a feedback collecting wing, looking at ways we are succeeding and ways we are failing to reach out to people I like this <TravisMcCrea> CraigNobbs that's why there would be a committee with all sorts of people on it so that polls could be presented with minimal (or no) bias ok, that i could be persuaded to get behind <TravisMcCrea> It owuld be an open committee so you could join it yourself <CraigNobbs> If there were a committee Travis, you nor I should be on it given our obvious bias <TravisMcCrea> bias is fine as long as people realize the bias and there is counter bias there <TravisMcCrea> if you and I could agree on a poll, then it's probably going to be pretty fine <TravisMcCrea> if you and I and 5 others can agree on a poll it will be great or.. maybe you both should be on it there is always bias, that cannot be avoided. that is why it must be open I'm back. Sorta. <TravisMcCrea> mordecai which is what I said <MononcQc> well ideally it's not how many people agree with a poll, it's how many statisticians do :V <CraigNobbs> Let's try this... just for shits and giggles. One it's face value, who is in favor of chaning the party's name? does anyone have feedback on how the other international parties deal with the perceived name stigma? <TravisMcCrea> CraigNobbs thats silly there is currently no evidence to support anything... it would just be peoples gut reactions <Infovorr> I'm most interested in that. <Infovorr> Especially in Germany and Sweden. <MononcQc> omarkj, ? ^ does the Icelandic party have anything there? <CraigNobbs> @Travis: yes, that's what I'm looking at. <CraigNobbs> afk 2 minutes... phone CraigNobbs we are not a party of gut reactors, are we? <TravisMcCrea> Gut reactions are what we should be avoiding as a party. although mine is still reacting from taco tuesday <TravisMcCrea> Gut reaction is to hang a person convicted of rape.... but the science tells us it doesn't prevent it from happening. We have to look at more than just what our first thoughts are, and look at what the evidence tells us. <TravisMcCrea> I withdraw my previous motion, and move that we establish an feedback committee designed to collect feedback and analytics regarding the Pirate Party and it's outreach abilities as well as peoples attitudes in general towards the Pirate brand and philosophy in Canada. The committee would be headless but organized initially by Travis McCrea, and would present it's findings at monthly meetings. <RLim> there is a suggestion for promo here <RLim> https://my.pirateparty.ca/node/168 <TravisMcCrea> If someone else would like to organize thats great <TravisMcCrea> I am just taking charge because I suggested it, as I said before. I second the motion. <RLim> I would expand that script to a 2 minutes thing <MononcQc> I'm interested in leading efforts of such a committee I think. <MononcQc> not sure what the workload would be, but I think it's a part where I could help a bit. <TravisMcCrea> MononcQc my motion says it's headless... your goal would just be to make sure that we are all talking and coming up with new ideas and acting on them I'd like to be part of such a committee, I just don't want to head it. <TravisMcCrea> but you wouldnt be "in charge" if people want to do their own thing within the committee thats fine i'm in as well. just don't have any experience setting anything like this up <MononcQc> TravisMcCrea, I guess I'm confused by 'organized initially' <MononcQc> vs. headless. <MononcQc> I have stats 101 classes which means I'm fairly dangerous! <TravisMcCrea> MononcQc "organized initially" being "get the ball rolling" get people interested in joining the committee work with people and stuff <TravisMcCrea> but again not say "yes you can do this, no you can't do that" <TravisMcCrea> just keep people moving in the right direction <MononcQc> TravisMcCrea, under that definition, I could second it. <MononcQc> is the commitee permanent or temporary? \msg moconcqc stats 101? amateur. Try advanced statistics. <MononcQc> or to be reevaluated? <TravisMcCrea> MononcQc well it's easy enough to dissolve, and we will be presenting our findings each month <MononcQc> rekabis, yeah, I know! <TravisMcCrea> so at that point the party can disolve it <TravisMcCrea> "oh you are providing no new information, we move to dissolve the committee" <MononcQc> if it's dissolvable, I second. Forgot that it was supposed to be a forward slash <MononcQc> rekabis, it was also the wrong username :) <TravisMcCrea> Yes, it's dissolvable but that doesn't need to be in the motion because it's inherently dissolvable <MononcQc> seconded. ok so has this "feedback" committee motion been seconded officially? <TravisMcCrea> I think so, I don't know if we need to move to vote or what i would like to move to a vote <TravisMcCrea> :P phillipsjk I think can help us <TravisMcCrea> I second TravisMcCrea, can<t second your own motion, but i believe I seconded it. <CraigNobbs> I'm back Although I have no issues with the current name (I just use a catchy response to any questioning), I too would like to see the results of any investigation. <TravisMcCrea> phillipsjk no I am seconding dysonsphere's move to vote <TravisMcCrea> which I can second <MononcQc> rekabis, I'd like to see a general ability for the party to gather feedback and data regarding its campaigns and public perception. <MononcQc> I think it's a generally useful thing to cement. <MononcQc> based on : <MononcQc> <TravisMcCrea> I withdraw my previous motion, and move that we establish an feedback committee designed to collect feedback and analytics regarding the Pirate Party and it's outreach abilities as well as peoples attitudes in general towards the Pirate brand and philosophy in Canada. The <MononcQc> committee would be headless ut organized initially by Travis McCrea, and would present it's findings at monthly nmeetings. <MononcQc> seconded. <TravisMcCrea> whoever is in charge of voting regardless of the order, it clearly has support to be voted on. <Wilson-Canada> Do we have an agreed upon motion to vote on? <MononcQc> ^ <CraigNobbs> So the motion: Establish a feedback committee to collect feedback and analytics regarding the Pirate Party of Canada and it's outreach aibilities in addition to peoples attitudes towards the PPCA brand and philosophy in Canada. <CraigNobbs> Is that correct Travis? <MononcQc> I think 'Headless' should be in there <TravisMcCrea> Which will report at monthly meetings, and is headless ^ <CraigNobbs> So the motion: Establish a chairless feedback committee to collect feedback and analytics regarding the Pirate Party of Canada and it's outreach aibilities in addition to peoples attitudes towards the PPCA brand and philosophy in Canada. This committee will report at monthly General Meetings. <MononcQc> it's => its <MononcQc> :B second <MononcQc> also seconded. aye <CraigNobbs> So the motion: Establish a chairless feedback committee to collect feedback and analytics regarding the Pirate Party of Canada and its outreach aibilities in addition to peoples attitudes towards the PPCA brand and philosophy in Canada. This committee will report at monthly General Meetings. <CraigNobbs> Vote open for 1 minute: Vote YES, NO, or ABSTAIN on the aforementioned motion yes <Infovorr> Yes. <CraigNobbs> NO Yes yes yes <MononcQc> yes yes <TravisMcCrea> Yes yes <Wilson-Canada> yes <RLim> yes <CraigNobbs> 11 votes for, 1 vote against. Motion passed. <MononcQc> do we have anything else on the table or I can move to adjourn? <CraigNobbs> one sec <MononcQc> aight <CraigNobbs> The EB will be in charge of setting up a forum for this committee to use within the next week. <CraigNobbs> Once it is up, anyone who wants to can put themselves in the committee <CraigNobbs> That concludes all of the old business <TravisMcCrea> The mail system has mailing list support, is it possible we could use that instead ++ <RLim> TravisMcCrea: yes <TravisMcCrea> Thanks <RLim> let me know who the members are and their e-mail addresses <MononcQc> count me in. <TravisMcCrea> Maybe we will create a thread in the forums <TravisMcCrea> actually we can do that now <MononcQc> Forums ++ <TravisMcCrea> create a sign up thread <MononcQc> agreed. ok <TravisMcCrea> and we can figure out what people want more <CraigNobbs> ok + <CraigNobbs> Any new business? <RLim> organizer please e-mail me the list of e-mails to add <TravisMcCrea> RLim I can't sign into the forums could you quickly create a thread and link it <TravisMcCrea> before we all take off <CraigNobbs> last call for new business <TravisMcCrea> Just say "if you are interested please comment here with your preference to hold it in the forums or by email list <RLim> what is the committee called? <TravisMcCrea> Feedback Committee <CraigNobbs> Nameing Feedback Committee <CraigNobbs> err spelling Oh, so nothing three sentences long? Shame. And here I thought we had learned from our communist friends... <TravisMcCrea> It's not the nameing feedback commitee <TravisMcCrea> we dropped the naming part <CraigNobbs> It is intrinsically just that Travis <RLim> https://my.pirateparty.ca/node/168 <RLim> ^ longer version of script for possible promo vi <RLim> *video <RLim> one sec TravisMcCrea <RLim> creating forum instead of a thread <TravisMcCrea> CraigNobbs whatever man, as a leader of this party I wish you would act more... leaderlike.... <CraigNobbs> great RLim <TravisMcCrea> embrace ideas, encourage members to think different. <CraigNobbs> I'm not leader, as you so aptly pointed out <CraigNobbs> Last order of business <TravisMcCrea> You are /a/ leader <RLim> ok <RLim> here it is <RLim> https://my.pirateparty.ca/forum/106 <MononcQc> cool. <RLim> for the video. Post comment with any feedback Leading the Pirate Party is like herding cats. <RLim> might do it slowly or maybe joint effort with international pirates? <CraigNobbs> I will be declining the position of President and accepting the rold as Deputy-Leader <CraigNobbs> err role of Deputy Leader <TravisMcCrea> https://www.dropbox.com/s/qszff7tamn734by/Screenshot%202014-03-19%2022.32.24.png <= the CAPTCHA I get on my.pirateparty.ca lol <RLim> then we need a vote for VP then? Looks like it. <TravisMcCrea> N or H... tiny a? 6 or a B? M something. :P <TravisMcCrea> now I have https://www.dropbox.com/s/cy15avdlbchdnzo/Screenshot%202014-03-19%2022.33.34.png <CraigNobbs> Please take misc. chat to #canada-riffraff <RLim> who wants to run for VP? <TravisMcCrea> I think it's a valid #Canada problem if people can't create accounts to my.pirateparty.ca <CraigNobbs> it is not the topic at hand Travis <CraigNobbs> and it is a #Canada-itcomm issue I think ideally, we should avoid captchas if possible. <RLim> and be bombarded with spam? <TravisMcCrea> I move to adjourn the meeting <CraigNobbs> The current issue at hand is the election of a VP RLim, computers as stupid powerful these days. They are better at captcha solving than humans are. <RLim> so how does the election of VP works. Need notice to members? Or nominate here and post a forum thread <RLim> ? <TravisMcCrea> CraigNobbs does that mean you are taking the deputy leader position? Sorry I missed that <CraigNobbs> Yes <TravisMcCrea> Congratulations. <CraigNobbs> I'm currently going through the Constitution looking for that RLim Did I accidentally disconnect or is everyone just quiet? <RLim> just quiet <CraigNobbs> just quite I propose we hold VP nomination over the next month, then but it to a ballot in the next GM. Yes, quite quiet. I understand now. :-P <MononcQc> went for a shower and going to bed soon :B phillipsjk sounds the best <CraigNobbs> There is nothing in the Constitution that specifies the remedy for the EB in this event <CraigNobbs> only the PC <RLim> so we can have our nomination and sent it to all party ballot? <RLim> Maybe keep a thread where people can nominate for a week Motion: Hold VP nominations over the next month, with all-party ballot to be approved at the next General Meeting. RLim: is there a rush to fill the VP position? second <RLim> no. Sending another mailout for special meeting might get us more unsubscribe considering how many e-mail we've sent this month .:) <CraigNobbs> It currently means that the President holds the power to the EB <RLim> So I support your motion <RLim> oh but don't we have to sent e-mail to let people know about ongoing nomination? or sent newsletter early in April <RLim> and include that bit <RLim> so CCitizen <CraigNobbs> Ooo... I have a question <CraigNobbs> If I were to pass on the Deputy Leader role, can I still be on the PC as a voting member of the PC? <CraigNobbs> and then keep the President position? <CraigNobbs> https://wiki.pirateparty.ca/index.php?title=Constitution_2012-06-20#Article_VII._Political_Council <RLim> yeah I think so. That's what I've been trying to confirm <CraigNobbs> That's how i read it <TravisMcCrea> I don't see why you can't I thought it just said you can't hold two officer positions. I believe your interpretation is correct <CraigNobbs> Well, I can resolve this then by passing on the Deputy Leader role while staying on the PC, and accepting the President role. Does that seem correct? As I told Rlim in PM: (Craig) would only have one vote on the EB anyway. Not sure why he wants both positions. <CraigNobbs> @PhillipsJK... That's the Executive Council, no the Executive Board <RLim> yes <CraigNobbs> The EC is made up of the Leader, Deputy Leader, President, VP, and Secretary Why don't I know this as outgoing President? <CraigNobbs> Well, I wasn't after an unfair advantage, so I'll pass on the Deputy Leader role while staying on the PC, and then accept the President role <CraigNobbs> unless there is any objection <TravisMcCrea> phillipsjk :\ you also were supposed to get free donuts every saturday at Tim Hortons <TravisMcCrea> I hope you got those <TravisMcCrea> no objection here CraigNobbs none here <CraigNobbs> That makes Shawn Vulliez Deputy Leader Oh, "The positions of President, Vice-President and Secretary shall not be eligible to hold a position on the Political Council" In Article IV, Officers. <Wilson-Canada> that would be the issue <RLim> oh? <TravisMcCrea> Well then nevermind... Looks like you have to pick one <RLim> Which is why I suggested striking out officers but allowing multiple position <TravisMcCrea> Sucks that wasn't proposed as an amendment <TravisMcCrea> RLim or why we just merge the two bodies Maybe Craigs' amendment should just strike that text. <CraigNobbs> How about an amendment that says "The positions of President, Vice-President and Secretary shall not be eligible to hold a position on the Political Council." will be struck <TravisMcCrea> phillipsjk it can't that would be substantially changing the amendment <TravisMcCrea> and would need new notice yes, I agree. agreed + <RLim> what about a motion to defer making CraigNobbs choose until next GM and all party ballot on constitutional amendment with regards to that <CraigNobbs> I don't see how. It accomplishes what I wanted plus what you wanted Travis <RLim> so allowing him to stay on both for now <MononcQc> I'm fine with both measures. ++ <TravisMcCrea> look I just said that I was in favour of Craig getting on the PC... but we can't keep holding up <TravisMcCrea> We are pushing it back a month to see if /maybe/ an amendment gets passed <TravisMcCrea> and we have no idea if that actually will happen <TravisMcCrea> what we need is a confirmed leadership and a party ready to move forward <RLim> I move that we defer making CraigNobbs choose between President and Deputy until a new constitutional amendment on this matter have been sent to an all party ballot and the results approved by a GM. Until then CraigNobbs retains both President and Deputy Leader position. <TravisMcCrea> plus I don't think we can vote to temporarily suspend the constition, that's an amendment <CraigNobbs> Since we can vote on amendments (alterations) to my amendment, we can amend it without additional notice as the original amendment already states this <TravisMcCrea> No, RLim that can't be passed because it's an amendment or us voting to willfully break the constition <RLim> A motion can only be voted once during a meeting <CraigNobbs> hmm <CraigNobbs> right <CraigNobbs> ok, I second RLim's motion <TravisMcCrea> I still object to RLim's motion because it violates the constition of the party The vague notice I recorded in the January minutes is: "CraigNobbs gives NOTICE for his proposed constitutional amendment next meeting, pertaining to allowing somebody to hold both an EB and PC position" <RLim> point of order? TravisMcCrea <Wilson-Canada> I'm going to point this out: We do not have quorum (which is still 15 till this meeting ends) Motion to Adjourn. second Good point, Wilson-Canada <RLim> Well then. That means CraigNobbs have to choose Only break one constitutional rule at a time ;) <MononcQc> foiled again by our member counts! <RLim> lol LOL <TravisMcCrea> whoever is on the agenda team, I would like to add a motion to next meetings agenda that no meeting can pass 10:30 EST. If we want to encourage young pirate members (18) we should not keep them up to 11:00PM on a school night. <RLim> lol <RLim> are we adjourning? <MononcQc> As an adult who likes going to bed early I'd like that 10:30 EST limit respected! <TravisMcCrea> RLim does CraigNobbs have to go on the record right now? The swedish Pirates have a 1 hour meeting rule. i think the late meeting effects us ol guys more than the teenagers ;) ^ <RLim> yeah lol <TravisMcCrea> hold up guys lets just address the serious part first <RLim> TravisMcCrea: I think if it is not going to get resolved <TravisMcCrea> Okay <TravisMcCrea> CraigNobbs? <CraigNobbs> Well, as I stated earlier, I want to help with the policy side of things this time around. <MononcQc> I'm amazed by the Swedes having hour-long meetings when we've had hour-long "waiting for quorum times" <CraigNobbs> So, I'll have to pass on the President role and accept the Deputy Leader role The Swedes can be much more disciplined than us... <RLim> ok adjourn vote? also fewer time zones <Wilson-Canada> Is that your final answer? <CraigNobbs> Yes <CraigNobbs> Since we cannot hold off <Wilson-Canada> ok, grats on being the new deputy leader <CraigNobbs> thanks <MononcQc> aye, congrats <RLim> congrats. Now we need to bug people to run for VP congrats from me too Congrats <CraigNobbs> thanks everyone. =) <RLim> You'll be busy with pc anyways <RLim> with long list of policies to go through <CraigNobbs> yup :P <CraigNobbs> Ok. well, I move to adjourne <RLim> darn just when I thought I got out of EB second second <CraigNobbs> =) <RLim> I am sure there will be others. I am already on The Fund <CraigNobbs> vote open: adjournment <RLim> aye <CraigNobbs> YES Yes <MononcQc> aye yeeesssss yes aye aye good night pirates <CraigNobbs> Motion Passed: Meeting Adjourned
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