FC 2011-06-30 transcript

[20:57] <~MikkelPaulson> hey folks [20:58] <+Rintaran> Hey Mikkel. [20:59] <~MikkelPaulson> this is my first time using this client, so apologies in advance if it turns out to be unstsble [20:59] <+Nuitari> hi [20:59] <+svulliez> hello [21:00] <~MikkelPaulson> still getting used to the Android keyboard too [21:00] <+MikeBleskie> Evening. [21:00] <~MikkelPaulson> well, attendance is good anyway [21:01] <+Nuitari> I'm here for only 30 minutes [21:02] <+MikeBleskie> Then let us get started by stating the obvious - holy flying furballs [21:02] <~MikkelPaulson> indeed [21:02] <+MikeBleskie> There has been a little bit of discussion so far [21:02] <+MikeBleskie> An evening with Nuitari, Sean Hunt and I [21:03] <+svulliez> Forum participation has been good since D-day, I've noticed [21:03] <+MikeBleskie> Well, aside from that, we now need a transition plan [21:03] <~MikkelPaulson> well there's an up side I suppose [21:04] <+svulliez> I think people like drama. I really love how much of a supervillian Travis has turned into [21:05] <+MikeBleskie> >_> [21:05] <~MikkelPaulson> of course, being that I'm practically off-grid while my internet was down, I didn't even find out until I got nuit's email [21:05] <+MikeBleskie> I think we need to remain grounded here, svulliez, no use of hyperbole [21:05] <+MikeBleskie> Thus [21:06] <~MikkelPaulson> at this point, I think everything I want to say has either already been said or would be unprofessional to say in a public medium [21:06] <+Nuitari> i have no issue in having this meeting be closed door [21:06] <+svulliez> That's intriguing. new territory. [21:07] <~MikkelPaulson> I think it's a valid motion under the circumstances [21:07] <~MikkelPaulson> shall we put it to a vote, then? [21:07] <+MikeBleskie> This plan will require a massive amount of constitutional amending, so, I agree [21:07] <+MikeBleskie> I second [21:07] <~MikkelPaulson> okay [21:08] <~MikkelPaulson> I vote yes [21:08] <+MikeBleskie> I vote yea [21:08] <+Nuitari> yes [21:08] <+Rintaran> Abstain - I could care less one way or another. [21:08] <+svulliez> no [21:08] <+svulliez> nay [21:09] <+Nuitari> it doesn't mean we won't release minutes, but the discussion shouldn't be necessarily be bared for all to see [21:09] <+svulliez> You guys voted, it's fair [21:09] <+svulliez> I'll participate [21:09] <~MikkelPaulson> could you do it? [21:09] <+MikeBleskie> Thank you for understanding [21:10] <~MikkelPaulson> it's hard enough for me to keep up with discussion on this thing [21:11] <+MikeBleskie> Now [21:11] <+MikeBleskie> Should I suggest separation of political and administrative duty as the primary task? [21:12] <+svulliez> Isn't that for the constitutional meeting? [21:13] <@Nuitari> I think we need to first look at continuation and who stays on board to help ease the new council [21:13] <~MikkelPaulson> okay, the one thing I wanted to say is this: Shawn, don't pretend you were pressured into your actions. you are a leader too, and have a responsibility to display personal acvojntab [21:14] <+MikeBleskie> Scshunt has asked me if I can extend my deadline, which I can, as long as my name and invovement within any role is minimized [21:14] <~MikkelPaulson> the buck stops with you just as you expect it to stop with me [21:14] <+svulliez> Pressured into posting the letter? [21:14] <+svulliez> I voluntarily did it, I confess [21:15] <+svulliez> And I understand if any of you were upset [21:15] <+svulliez> I've apologized to Mikkel, it could have been handled better. [21:16] <+svulliez> I was convinced by an anonymous pirate that the message would have more weight if raised by me [21:16] <@Nuitari> you really need to have more judgement then that [21:16] <+svulliez> rather than Travis [21:17] <+svulliez> I don't think it was an awful thing to do, honestly. [21:17] <~MikkelPaulson> it did, now unfortunately the consequences are also yours [21:17] <+MikeBleskie> You never brought this to the rest of us in a more appropriate channel [21:18] <+MikeBleskie> IE email [21:18] <+svulliez> I shouldn't have posted Travis' letter- I should have started a proactive discussion. [21:18] <+MikeBleskie> And I never recieved any indication of issues on your part [21:18] <+svulliez> Well, to be fair- response by e-mail isn't always guaranteed around here [21:19] <+svulliez> I agree that I failed to communicate. [21:19] <+svulliez> That is a systemic problem in the party, and you and nuitari are just as responsible or that as Mikkel or I [21:20] <~MikkelPaulson> you didn't see the state of the party administration before I took the helm [21:20] <+MikeBleskie> That is indeed true [21:20] <+svulliez> MikkelPaulson: I did... Didn't I? [21:20] <+svulliez> Yeah I did [21:21] <+svulliez> I registered on the 1 year anniversary of the pirate party of canada [21:21] <~MikkelPaulson> two directors weren't even aware that there was a motion in progress to expel a member of the party [21:21] <+svulliez> Yeah, and it's a great show of what you've been able to do for us [21:22] <+svulliez> You've lifted us to another level of participation [21:22] <~MikkelPaulson> I instituted the weekly meetings, maintained constant communication through directors@, and never take action without ensuring that the council members know about it [21:24] <~MikkelPaulson> anyway, I'm sure I'll have a chance to argue my point before the party [21:24] <~MikkelPaulson> so I'll avoid wasting time there [21:24] <+svulliez> So, what is the point of this meeting? why is it secret? [21:24] <~MikkelPaulson> what's done is done, now what do we do? [21:25] <+svulliez> I thought we were going to do a refinement meeting to handle the changes to the constitution. [21:25] <~MikkelPaulson> because I would like to speak frankly about ygd future of this council, and others should have the freedom to do so too [21:25] <~MikkelPaulson> *the [21:25] <@Nuitari> svulliez: the constitution one is later [21:26] <@Nuitari> first we need to clarify who leaves and how we move forward [21:26] <+MikeBleskie> One at a time, then [21:26] <+MikeBleskie> As mentioned... (9:14:01 PM) MikeBleskie: Scshunt has asked me if I can extend my deadline, which I can, as long as my name and invovement within any role is minimized [21:26] <~MikkelPaulson> in short, I think its reasonable to have a regular leadership review after an election [21:27] <~MikkelPaulson> as things stand right now, Shawn will be the only man standing in a few months [21:27] <+Rintaran> I am uncertain still as of this time. [21:28] <~MikkelPaulson> fair enough [21:28] <+svulliez> I agree. A confidence vote following every federal election would be a great constitutional amendment [21:28] <~MikkelPaulson> honestly after the last week I don't even want to be here [21:28] <+svulliez> it gives people like Mike a chance to leave [21:29] <+svulliez> and people like Travis a place to gripe and vote [21:29] <+MikeBleskie> And my belief is annual elections. [21:29] <~MikkelPaulson> but I won't give the "crucify him" camp the satisfaction of resigning just because they have managed to build a poisonous atmosphere [21:30] <+MikeBleskie> Burnout syndrome seems to be rampant around here. [21:30] <~MikkelPaulson> 4-year terms are way too long for an unpaid full-time position [21:31] <+svulliez> I think 2 years and post-federal VOC's are the way to go [21:31] <~MikkelPaulson> I think 2 years with staggered annual elections is reasonable [21:32] <@Nuitari> I need to get going, we'll discuss the admin side next week [21:32] <+svulliez> no [21:32] <+MikeBleskie> Indeed, see you [21:33] <~MikkelPaulson> fine,ta [21:33] <@Nuitari> but come up with a plan that ensure continuity throughout the future, we can't all leave in one go and hope things will be ok [21:33] <~MikkelPaulson> ke emcamm [21:33] <~MikkelPaulson> *take care [21:33] <~MikkelPaulson> getting used to this keyboard [21:33] <~MikkelPaulson> thanks for your support [21:34] <+svulliez> See, this is a perfect example of the type of... You guys- and I'm sorry for not raising this sooner... [21:34] <+svulliez> You have this little clique thing [21:34] <+MikeBleskie> what? [21:34] <+svulliez> stephane seems to think that he, mikkel, and mike leaving is "everyone" [21:35] <+svulliez> Shawn G and I have to fight for every bit of information we can get [21:36] <~MikkelPaulson> Shawn G has also indicated that he is considering leaving [21:36] <+svulliez> I know. [21:36] <+MikeBleskie> svulliez: I'm trying to keep my door open as much as possible >.> [21:36] <+Rintaran> One reason being because I've repeated been told the tools I need will come, and then never receive them. [21:37] <~MikkelPaulson> I still don't understand your grievances related to lack of access to information [21:37] <+MikeBleskie> Whatever I get, I try and forward to council [21:37] <+svulliez> I e-mail you and nuitarii all the time to deaf ears [21:37] <~MikkelPaulson> you seem to think I've directly obstructed you [21:37] <~MikkelPaulson> for instance? [21:38] <~MikkelPaulson> I haven't had much access to my PPCA email this month [21:38] <+Rintaran> So Mikkel, the e-mails I requested from you two months ago, which you've repeatedly said you were going to send right away, you sent that? The membership lists are accessible? The info required to send out the newsletter has finally been sent after repeated requests? [21:38] <~MikkelPaulson> finally caved and added it to my work computer [21:38] <+Rintaran> I request something. It's promised. It never arrives. I'm unable to do my job. [21:39] <~MikkelPaulson> we can send a newsletter in short order if its actually written [21:39] <~MikkelPaulson> it never is [21:39] <+svulliez> That's not a valid excuse to not send him the information [21:39] <~MikkelPaulson> it doesn't matter whose finger us on the button [21:39] <+Rintaran> The June one was, but it was never sent, nor was the information to send it which was promised me. [21:40] <~MikkelPaulson> I'm sorry to hear that [21:40] <+svulliez> It does matter if all of us want to get our inger on the button but you wont send us buttons [21:40] <~MikkelPaulson> like I say, I've been out if the loop for most of the month [21:41] <+Rintaran> It's not just the past month Mikkel. It's since we were elected. [21:41] <~MikkelPaulson> hell, I've been going to internet cafés just to attend these damn meetings which you seem to think I disrespect so much [21:42] <~MikkelPaulson> sorry you feel that way [21:43] <+Rintaran> It's the long absences in the middle of meetings that demonstrate that all on their own. [21:43] <~MikkelPaulson> as in, one of them? [21:44] <~MikkelPaulson> I'm sure you recall how that meeting ended [21:44] <+Rintaran> There have been a few, but I haven't specifically pointed out your disrespect for meetings. [21:44] <~MikkelPaulson> that's exactly what I was trying to avoid getting inti [21:45] <+svulliez> That's like trying to keep the snow from melting with a blowdryer [21:45] <~MikkelPaulson> is there anything else constructive that's going to happen here? [21:46] <~MikkelPaulson> your little "attack Mikkel" sessions seem to manage quite well behind my back [21:46] <+Rintaran> Still trying to figure out exactly what the point of going private here was. [21:46] <~MikkelPaulson> no point in breaking with tradition now [21:46] <+svulliez> ego? [21:47] <~MikkelPaulson> I guess there's my answer [21:47] <+svulliez> Since becoming a member of the council, I have routinely felt like my opinions weren't being considered with any weight, and my contributions have been ample. I've seen this same thing happen to others countless times. [21:48] <+svulliez> Someone comes prepared to help, and we turn them away somehow, or disregard their opinion, make the feel unwelcome. [21:49] <~MikkelPaulson> I thought I was supposed to be doing that single-handed [21:50] <~MikkelPaulson> let's get back to what we can do now [21:51] <+MikeBleskie> Yes. [21:51] <+svulliez> If you're going to angrily fall back on "not being the only council member" and questioning the meeting's productivity, it's clear again you are not interested in having a conversation [21:51] <+svulliez> What can we do now? [21:51] <~MikkelPaulson> I have better things to do than listen to you whine at me for an hour [21:52] <+svulliez> let me find a good mikkel quote to accompany that [21:52] <~MikkelPaulson> if we hold a general election, I will agree not to stand for re-election [21:52] <~MikkelPaulson> that's it [21:52] <~MikkelPaulson> don't let me interrupt your little club [21:52] *** MikkelPaulson has left #council: quitting [21:53] <+Rintaran> Wow. Nice to see there's still no meeting. [21:53] <+svulliez> Welp [21:53] <+svulliez> Looks like he took it pretty hard [21:55] <+svulliez> We still have quorum [21:55] <+svulliez> although Nuitari will abstain, I'm sure [21:55] <+Rintaran> We know Nuitari has been gone for some time. [21:55] <+Rintaran> He announced his exit early-on. He could only stay the first 30. [21:56] <+Rintaran> Bleskie's around but can't get back in. [21:56] <+svulliez> Well, what is the definition of attendance? [21:56] <+svulliez> is being logged in good enough? [21:56] <+Rintaran> No, I don't believe it is. [21:57] <+Rintaran> If they logged in, spoke, and then disappeared without telling anyone, that'd be different. [21:57] <+svulliez> Could mike vote on a meeting point even though he's not in the chat? [21:57] <+svulliez> we could continue in another channel [21:57] <+Rintaran> Join #temporary whoo <~MikeBleskie> Okay, let's continue from here.  Would you like a recap of what you missed after your crash-out? <~MikeBleskie> Yes, please  [21:51] *** MikeBleskie has quit IRC: Connection reset by peer[21:51] <~MikkelPaulson> I have better things to do than listen to you whine at me for an hour[21:52] <+svulliez> let me find a good mikkel quote to accompany that[21:52] <~MikkelPaulson> if we hold a general election, I will agree not to stand for re-election[21:52] <~MikkelPaulson> that's it[21:52] <~MikkelPaulson> don't let me interrupt your little club[21:52] *** MikkelPaulson has left #council: quitting[21:53] <+Rintaran> Wow. Nice to see there's still no meeting.[21:53] <+svulliez> Welp[21:53] <+svulliez> Looks like he took it pretty hard[21:55] <+svulliez> We still have quorum[21:55] <+svulliez> although Nuitari will abstain, I'm sure[21:55] <+Rintaran> We know Nuitari has been gone for some time.[21:55] <+Rintaran> He announced his exit early-on. He could only stay the first 30.[21:56] <+Rintaran> Bleskie's around but can't get back in.[21:56] <+svulliez> Well, what is the definition of attendance?[21:56] <+svulliez> is being logged in good enough?[21:56] <+Rintaran> No, I don't believe it is.[21:57] <+Rintaran> If they logged in, spoke, and then disappeared without telling anyone, that'd be different.[21:57] <+svulliez> Could mike vote on a meeting point even though he's not in the chat?[21:57] <+svulliez> we could continue in another channel[21:57] <+Rintaran> Join #temporary MikkelPaulsonI have better things to do than listen to you whine at me for an hour 18:52svulliezlet me find a good mikkel quote to accompany that 18:52MikkelPaulsonif we hold a general election, I will agree not to stand for re-election 18:52MikkelPaulsonthat's it 18:53MikkelPaulsondon't let me interrupt your little club 18:53*** MikkelPaulson left <~MikeBleskie> Good god <~MikeBleskie> Anyways <~MikeBleskie> I've been hoping we can get to actually deciding the best course of action since the beginning of tonight. Shall we? Well, we need a good constitutional amendment to increase productivity and smooth internal logistics  We need a fresh constitution I think. There's a lot in this one that really doesn't work. <~MikeBleskie> Scshunt said this separation of powers would make the NPC be smoother Could we just pirate the green constitution and modify it to our needs? <~MikeBleskie> No <~MikeBleskie> that's what we did last time  Where's the green constitution? The one linked in the forums was to our PPCA constution. <~MikeBleskie> Exactly what we did <~MikeBleskie> (11:47:01 PM) Nuitari: I think you both need a bit of history <~MikeBleskie> (11:47:12 PM) Nuitari: initially the constitution was "derived" from the green party <~MikeBleskie> (11:47:34 PM) MikeBleskie: I remember there was discussion of deriving the Green constitution <~MikeBleskie> (11:47:38 PM) Nuitari: and the NPC rules were written by Rob Britton and found to be fully inadequate by Industry Canada <~MikeBleskie> (11:47:57 PM) Nuitari: we then switched to the standard, fill in the blanks, Industry Canada rules <~MikeBleskie> (11:47:58 PM) MikeBleskie: I didn't think we would use specific numbers <~MikeBleskie> (11:48:00 PM) scshunt: Do you have a copy of the draft that was rejected? <~MikeBleskie> (11:48:09 PM) scshunt: MikeBleskie: Our quorum is 50. <~MikeBleskie> (11:48:43 PM) scshunt: ah, I found them <~MikeBleskie> (11:49:11 PM) scshunt: what exactly did Industry Canada? Just "These suck, get new ones"? <~MikeBleskie> (11:50:04 PM) Nuitari: yeah but in many more words <~MikeBleskie> (11:50:16 PM) Nuitari: more like "these sucks, why bother, just use ours" <~MikeBleskie> This was last night <~MikeBleskie> This is what I was hoping to bring up <~MikeBleskie> Should we bring Sean into here? yes <~MikeBleskie> Okay <~MikeBleskie> e's coming allo <~MikeBleskie> Excellent why am I here? <~MikeBleskie> Well, we've finally moved onto the constitutional part of things just the three? <~MikeBleskie> Mhm, Mikkel stepped out nuitari left after a half hour mikkel left in anger oh dear <~MikeBleskie> So now it's up to us to hammer a few details out is this FC business? <~MikeBleskie> Yes ok, so what do we need to discuss before the public bit <~MikeBleskie> I figure the one thing we should do before calling it a night is delegating leadership roles <~MikeBleskie> We have our "political" side, and our "admin" side is FC still in confidential session? <~MikeBleskie> We legally require our leader, and officers <~MikeBleskie> No ok should probably inform @canada then *#canada k, enough distraction <~MikeBleskie> And so I suggest that for our new constitution, we designate what roles go where. agreed <~MikeBleskie> Any suggestions before I roll out my own?  We need a separate Party President, for the admin side, and Party Leader for the political side. This is for right now, yes? this should really be with the committee, I think "committee" <~MikeBleskie> Of course, it's just brainstorming right now that's what the committee is for <~MikeBleskie> But we should go in with *something* I don't see why? We all have ideas the ideas of the public are also valuable the purpose of the committee is to do the coming up with something we don't need to force a consensus before we talk to the public <~MikeBleskie> Then you want to just call it a night? or is there other business If you just want to present ideas from the FC, I shouldn't participate although I do really wish I knew what caused mikkel to leave I have a few federal council ideas <~MikeBleskie> scshunt: banter <~MikeBleskie> svulliez: Okay, let us hear? I move that we make the logs public, there is nothing secret-worthy about them, and it's a bad precedent to set. <~MikeBleskie> Hm <~MikeBleskie> well We have quorum, we can make this call. <~MikeBleskie> Seeing it was somewhat more civil than originally expected <~MikeBleskie> I will second  All in favour?  Aye. <~MikeBleskie> Yea. all in favor aye <~MikeBleskie> Okay that is the best vote I've ever taken part in at a fed council meeting I'm glad that we don't tolerate secrecy <~MikeBleskie> I was much more concerned that personal boundaries would be crossed <~MikeBleskie> But imo none were I don't think it was wrong to begin with since caution is good, though I'm happy to see you didn't just leave it closed :) I think svulliez has some ideas, then we can get to the constitution if there was personal information, I would be in support of censoring them I'd like to set up a bot, a piratebot that will remind people of upcoming meetings every hour or so, and 30 minutes before the meetings in #canada <~MikeBleskie> If stenobot were a permanent fixture, it could have been set up to do so <~MikeBleskie> but I suppose not We can also look to having other functions for the piratebot but I think meeting announcements would be great A good extensible bot would be nice, though an hour is far too frequent particularly as we're going to see more meetings from now on an hour and a half? I'd like to make sure people see it Better would be a chanserv notice upon joining I don't find it particularly annoying to have an hourly blurb You don't idle ChanServ can tell new joins where an event schedule is yeah.. or "/msg piratebot MEETINGS for meeting schedule" I'll create a development thread on the matter if there are no objections Should probably base it on something like supybot but let's stop wasting time  Yeah, lets get down to work. <~MikeBleskie> NPC membership was also discussed last night That should be for the cosntitution meeting too, I think <~MikeBleskie> True Oh,  NPC? <~MikeBleskie> the non-profit corp. I'd like to have a private forum for council members and other administrative types. It will encourage discussion and communication also, it will encourage us to make th eforums more fun to participate in, I've received a lot of criticism that the forum is a real drag The whole website needs to be unified I agree <~MikeBleskie> Someone suggested a redo forums, wiki and membership should all be one login <~MikeBleskie> I wouldn't know how to go about it We've had a few volunteers recently who could handle that, I think It would take some time That's another one for development I was thinking recently, what are the functions of the party? what can we do to be effective? <~MikeBleskie> Elaborate? I hate to be impatient but I think if we go to talk about the constitution we can get a much better picture, as I have some ideas I'd like to toss out there apart from fielding candidates, how can the PPCA be effective? I think content creation needs to become a raised priority <~MikeBleskie> The party raises awareness, uses electoral action to lobby for governmental change, and uses grassroots to sell the message be it videos, comics, websites, computer programs, etc if we create things to spread our message, we'll be more effective in the years with no election, I believe this should be a prime priority, and we should configure the party to do it effectively I suppose this can all wait until another time <~MikeBleskie> But the sooner, the better  Ok, shall we call the FC a wrap and move on to the constitution meeting? <~MikeBleskie> in order to start to pull out ahead of the pack <~MikeBleskie> Sure. meeting adjourned
 * scshunt has joined #temporary

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