FC 2011-07-07 transcript

<~MikeBleskie> Huzzah?  Well, we has quorum.  cool  Any suggestions for tonight's agenda?  Ryan Oram is the only one to want the it admin  and no one for the rest uh may I talk?  yes  You should talk more often. :P Ryan isn't a member of the Party; that is something worth considering also I volunteered to be a director of the PPCAF  af? PPCA Fund Rintaran: I usually don't speak because I don't want to get my opinions in the way too much. If you want to hear them, please ask :)  cool  scshunt: See, we're opposites. I don't speak unless I have opinions... Rintaran: If I were a member of this council, I would speak my opinion, but I'm not oh also, with regards to the constitution, consultation with a parliamentarian yielded the following: - An in-person meeting is strictly necesary <~MikeBleskie> Directors - But possibly not practically necessary <~MikeBleskie> you should have also gotten a PM from Ryan via the forum if that makes any sense <~MikeBleskie> stating he may be taking an IT job with the young greens yeah, he said that in #canada too <~MikeBleskie> sorry bout jumping in there  membership is required to be an itadmin  and I think he would be a mistake <~MikeBleskie> I agree <~MikeBleskie> And I'm saying that with thought <~MikeBleskie> though he does have some skill  and the council has to agree on the itadmin  Well, I think it's a question of what's your time-frame for withdrawal Nuitari? I had the sense it was going to be done swiftly from the posting.  If we can wait, then I also see no compelling reason to give it to him, just as I have no compelling reason to deny him. I think that the issue with Ryan is that he's opportunistic  He is. He also runs his mouth when he should shut up and listen... But atleast he's not just listening... <+Nuitari> there are a lot of things that bug me about Ryan <+Nuitari> I can keep the it stuff running until we find a replacement, but working on new projects isn't something I have much time for <+scshunt> In my opinion, he's ready and willing to participate, but he needs to make commitment. Both by becoming a member and making sure that he understands he can't just run off without retribution <+scshunt> It is worth considering, however, that if we adopt a new constitution with a formal IT position, it would probably be to the membership to elect <+scshunt> and depending on the timeline of getting that adopted, it may be better to wait <~MikeBleskie> I wonder if that would turn out to be like electing the keeper of a bank vault <+Nuitari> I think the IT Admin should be made into either a FC position, or a position that is accountable to the FC <+scshunt> In my draft, the IT Director is a member of the Executive Board and responsible to the membership, but would have to yield to the Executive Board if it wanted a decision made <+Nuitari> the person in that position and the FC would have to be able to work together, something which has been proven to be difficult if everyone is elected <+Rintaran> I'd also be more inclined to have the IT Admin appointed by the Executive Board on the Advice of the Political Board. <+Nuitari> the FC can entrust someone with a level of decision making <+scshunt> The approach I took was that they would be elected by a meeting; not normally by mail ballot <+Nuitari> I think one of the problem is that we have a constitution that discourage individual decision making by members of the FC <+Rintaran> Ah, you've gotten further than I last saw. <+scshunt> Rintaran: No, it's just taken to be implicit <+scshunt> So it would be only the involved members (who are the ultimate authority in practice anyhow) who would really participate in the elections of the IT Director (and of every other non- political position) <+scshunt> https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&srcid=0B6fMlT7CjwHnMDQ3NGMyZTYtMjkyYi00M2NiLWE3MzYtMDY4YzM0MGMxYmU5&hl=en_US is the most recent draft modulo a few typos <+Rintaran> So, in effect, the Executive is appointed by the Political Body? <+scshunt> uh, ok, broken link <+scshunt> Rintaran: No, by general meetings <+scshunt> https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B6fMlT7CjwHnMDQ3NGMyZTYtMjkyYi00M2NiLWE3MzYtMDY4YzM0MGMxYmU5&hl=en_US <+Rintaran> I don't have permissions to view that document. <+scshunt> try that one <+Rintaran> That one works. <+scshunt> Individual decisions is partly a maturity issue as a culture one <+scshunt> since FC hasn't had the time to develop a careful delegation of powers <+scshunt> The various proposed boards would have the same issue <+scshunt> but I'd hope that it would get resolved Ah Hello guys <+Nuitari> hello <+Rintaran> Hey Shawn. <~MikeBleskie> Hullo Whats wrong with #council? <+Rintaran> Nuitari couldn't speak. <+scshunt> Nuitari couldn't get voice. Also Rintaran wants me to participate apparently <+scshunt> :P Nice <+Rintaran> So we started in here, and may as well participate. <+Rintaran> Well, you are kinda authoring the new constitution. I'm in belize using andriod tethered internet so I might disappear <+Rintaran> It makes the bit Bleskie, Vulliez and I started on look kinda crappy in comparison. <+scshunt> Rintaran: I have experience :) Really? scshunt has done his own? <+scshunt> svulliez: yeah, https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B6fMlT7CjwHnMDQ3NGMyZTYtMjkyYi00M2NiLWE3MzYtMDY4YzM0MGMxYmU5&hl=en_US <+Rintaran> We were also just working on trying to modify what was there. Not straight from scratch. <+scshunt> I didn't realize you guys were meeting up to work on it <+scshunt> When I said new constitution, I meant new :P <+Rintaran> We had asked you... re: last sunday... <+scshunt> I didn't realize you guys were going to be drafting <+scshunt> also I think I slept through Sunday <+scshunt> (honestly, I'm sort of afraid that when the dust settles, I'll have accidentally the presidency) <+Rintaran> Still lots to be done I'm afraid. <+Rintaran> It would be a good position for you actually. <+Rintaran> I could see it. <+Nuitari> bookkeeper? <+scshunt> ah, I need to go get food; I'll be back in a few <~MikeBleskie> Full house <+Rintaran> Ok. We'll come back to the constitution. We should return to the question of Oram and get that decided so he isn't thinking we ignored his request. <@MikkelPaulson> sorry I'm late, folks <+Nuitari> I don't think he will be a good fit for the IT-Admin role <@MikkelPaulson> reminder didn't go off <+Nuitari> we also need someone for the bookkeeper role <+Nuitari> and seeing the interest (eg fuck all), I think we'll need to open up bids for the position and pay someone <@MikkelPaulson> I agree with Nuit <+Rintaran> I barely have enough bookkeeping experience to get through my taxes, and working through campaign stuff wasn't fun for me neither, otherwise I'd take on the role. <+Rintaran> Me and numbers, not best of friends with my dislexia in place I'm afraid. <+Rintaran> Sorry man. <+Nuitari> it's ok <+svulliez> In my correspondence with Oram, he's struck me as a dedicated, enthusiastic guy who honestly wants to contribute to the party in the way that offends you guys the least <+svulliez> I understand there has been some issues with him in the past, but they have been strictly social, haven't they? <+svulliez> Is there any real reason for him not being able to take some of the load? If we don't let him help us, he's going to leave <@MikkelPaulson> his motives concern me <+svulliez> which is what I'd say has been one of our principal failures, pushing away capable volunteers <+Nuitari> i would be ok to start him on a project and see how it goes <+svulliez> you're going to have to be more specific I think <+svulliez> MikkelPaulson <+svulliez> "his motives" <@MikkelPaulson> even if he joins with the best of intentions, his views don't mesh with ours <+svulliez> That's not true, he explicitly prefers the pirate party to all other parties <+svulliez> he's tech oriented and generally agrees with us <@MikkelPaulson> the Greens don't like him because he's trying to push them in a direction they don't want to go <@MikkelPaulson> do we really want the same to happen here? <+svulliez> You're speaking in rhetoric, not facts <+svulliez> The greens didn't want him on their youth council because he is pro-nuclear and wants Greens to update their stance <+Rintaran> Actually both. He's openly admitted the Green thing, re: nuclear views <+svulliez> Sorry, I don't mean to say there was no truth to what he was saying <+svulliez> I just mean that as an argument against him, that's quite weak <+Rintaran> Was part-fact, part fear... <+svulliez> I wish I could stay longer, but I am almost out of data already :( <+Rintaran> That was quick. <~MikeBleskie> bye =( <+svulliez> my cousin has a top up code... I might drop out <+Rintaran> Well... What smaller project could we entrust him with to test him out? <+svulliez> but I should be able to stay for a while <+Nuitari> forum for members only? <+Rintaran> It seems pretty certain there are 3 quite against him on the position. I have no reason either way, and we know Vulliez is arguing for it... <+svulliez> I want to participate in this meeting <+Rintaran> Designing and putting it together? <+svulliez> It's also worth considering: who is staying and who is going <+Nuitari> it won't be my problem if he doesn't turn out good <+svulliez> I don't want to understate your guy's contributions to the party... but it would suck if one of the last actions of those leaving was to prevent those who are staying from all the help they could use <@MikkelPaulson> I don't have a problem with him participating as part of a committee or something <+scshunt> Suggestion: first require him to commit <@MikkelPaulson> but I won't support giving him any sort of official position <+svulliez> It seems he's quite willing to commit <+scshunt> Get him to join the party and explain that if he doesn't follow through we could take steps <~MikeBleskie> I'm not sure about thst, considering the PM I got this morning <+Rintaran> I like Nuitari's suggestion. We're behind on that one already. <+scshunt> Ask for something small as a demonstration <+scshunt> and then just work our asses off to aim to get a constitution <+svulliez> What if we started him on a few IT admin duties, and on another project for him to prove himself? <@MikkelPaulson> if the constitution committee wants to split the leadership into Leader and President, I'll stay long until the election <+scshunt> (speaking of which, I didn't read scrollback and have little time - did you guys come to a decision one way or another about a meeting)? <+scshunt> MikkelPaulson: you're on android; which email should I share the doc with? <+scshunt> I have a google doc pdf draft <+Nuitari> my wife is willing to continue the book keeping for this year for 400$ if we dont' find anyone else <@MikkelPaulson> via what service? <+scshunt> MikkelPaulson: Google docs, as I said <+scshunt> android has that native no? <+svulliez> I'll do it for $399 ;-) <@MikkelPaulson> sorry takes a while to compose a message <@MikkelPaulson> mikkelpaulson@gmail <@MikkelPaulson> no idea, new phone <+scshunt> sent <+scshunt> well, see if it works :) <+scshunt> I have to go pretty quick <+scshunt> Should I assume you guys want to go with the online approach to adoption? <+Nuitari> yes <+Nuitari> and remove all requirement for in-person meetings <+Nuitari> and quorum needs to be really low <+Rintaran> I think that would be preferable. An IRL meeting would be awesome, but it's not really practical. <+svulliez> from what I could see... there wasn't any explicit dedication to an offline meeting <+svulliez> I do want to plan a piratecon for 2012 <+svulliez> but this year, its a little hasty <@MikkelPaulson> likewise <+scshunt> ok, cool <+scshunt> this does have the advantage of a better timeline; would could conceivably be all done except the political election by the end of august <@MikkelPaulson> maybe coincident with PPI general meeting? <+scshunt> well we still need 50 people to come to our GM <+svulliez> MikkelPaulson: that would be epic <+scshunt> anyway, I have to go, you guys can finish any other business <+scshunt> really glad to see you all here and not at each others' throats by the way :) <@MikkelPaulson> one thing I would really like to see is a public forum with leader and as many high- ranking PPI reps as we can get <+svulliez> I don't have an interest in being at any throat ever. I just have the unfortunate trait of being incredibly sassy :( <@MikkelPaulson> good to know <+Rintaran> Ok, can we kill two birds here before moving on to PPI & Piratecon. <@MikkelPaulson> okay <+Rintaran> Ryan Oram, offer him the chance to prove himself setting up the member's only forum bit, as suggested by Nuitari. Thoughts, opinions, or just straight to a vote? <~MikeBleskie> I think to a vote. <@MikkelPaulson> opposition <@MikkelPaulson> setting it up requires significant admin access <+Nuitari> I'd be ok with that <+Nuitari> I can arrange the limited access necessary for that <@MikkelPaulson> which frankly I'm still hesitant to give him <+svulliez> You still haven't given any suggestion as to his negative motivation <+Rintaran> Regular back-ups can also setup quick undos if a rescue is necessary... <@MikkelPaulson> would require full admin on the forum <+svulliez> other than he has different ideas about the party <+Nuitari> we do have daily backups <+Rintaran> And you can roll back several days if necessary? <+Nuitari> yes <+Rintaran> Sounds like we have some accountability measures. <@MikkelPaulson> that's what bothers me <@MikkelPaulson> I'm not the leader <@MikkelPaulson> nuit is <@MikkelPaulson> he could shut us down today if he wanted to <@MikkelPaulson> I trust him not to <+Rintaran> He's the administrator, not the leader. <@MikkelPaulson> but don't kid yourselves about the importance of the position <@MikkelPaulson> he could throw a switch and shut the entire party down <@MikkelPaulson> there is no accountability when it comes to IT admin <+Nuitari> the FC does need to find someone they can trust <+svulliez> forums user "babaotronche" is also interested in helping set up the new forum <+svulliez> he runs intercode.ca <+svulliez> now this phone is almost out of batteries, if I can find the charger I will stay <+Rintaran> I don't know babaotronche, so I have little opinion on that user. <@MikkelPaulson> likewise <@MikkelPaulson> so I don't trust him either <+svulliez> He's not trying to be IT admin <@MikkelPaulson> I guess we can't be too picky though <+svulliez> he has just offered to code for us, more or less <@MikkelPaulson> ah okay <+svulliez> Couldn't nuit set it up so the IT team could have limited but sufficient access? <@MikkelPaulson> maybe we can set up a dev server for the updated forum <@MikkelPaulson> I'm attending WordCamp Montreal this weekend, so again I'll be useless <+Nuitari> yeah a dev server would work <@MikkelPaulson> so let's do that <@MikkelPaulson> I'd be okay with giving both of them a swing <+Rintaran> Ok. That sounds great to me. <+Rintaran> A good compromise. <+svulliez> nuitari: are you ok with staying IT admin until the election? <+Nuitari> yes <+svulliez> I think if we give Oram a chance to prove himself explicitly, he will follow through <+Rintaran> Either that, or he'll turn it down and the issue is solved. <+svulliez> although being offered the green position, I wonder if he may opt out <+Rintaran> Either he'll work, or opt not to. <+svulliez> Sounds good to me <@MikkelPaulson> I'm not in doubt as to his competence <+Rintaran> Sounds like at least four of us are in agreement on this. Nuitari, as the reigning IT Admin, I think it's only fair for you to extend the offer formally. <~MikeBleskie> Way to delegate the task <+svulliez> I don't have the charger, I'm going to drop out here in a second <+Rintaran> It's not like the rest of us can set him up. *shrugs* <+svulliez> low battery now <@MikkelPaulson> okay, well thanks for coming <+Nuitari> I'll let him know <@MikkelPaulson> any parting remarks? <+Nuitari> I'll also have to go soon, need to upgrade some servers <+svulliez> I love you guys, you're involved with the best political party <@MikkelPaulson> as are you <~MikeBleskie> As is Michael Gei...oh. <+Rintaran> So you fight and then make out... Sheesh. :P <+svulliez> thats how I roll <+svulliez> sorry for preventing you from stepping down with dignity like you were secretly planning <@MikkelPaulson> if he's willing to put it behind him so am I <+svulliez> its funny that the whole mutiny thing came out of communication problems <+svulliez> but neither of us communicated our plans <+svulliez> if either of us had, it would have never happened <@MikkelPaulson> if every meeting from now on is a repeat of last week's, nothing will ever get done <@MikkelPaulson> apology accepted <@MikkelPaulson> so, conferences? <~MikeBleskie> Yes <+svulliez> doctorow told scshunt he would speak at a hypothetical PPCA conference <~MikeBleskie> I'm dreaming up of a way we can combine a PPI bid into a superconference <+svulliez> which is sweeeeet <@MikkelPaulson> yeah! <~MikeBleskie> Doctorow? YESSS <@MikkelPaulson> weeklong? :D <~MikeBleskie> That'd be neat <@MikkelPaulson> wow, autocorrect wanted me to say "swelling?" <~MikeBleskie> the thing is is that PPI conferences are set for weekends <@MikkelPaulson> I like the guy, but... <~MikeBleskie> saturday and sunday <@MikkelPaulson> yeah <@MikkelPaulson> PPCA conference before or after? <~MikeBleskie> Indeed <~MikeBleskie> So, hopefully in the earliest point of summer, if PPI would allow us to make a bid like that <+Nuitari> let's start fundraising... <@MikkelPaulson> they usually like them pretty early in the year don't they? <@MikkelPaulson> costs should be at least mostly covered by fees <~MikeBleskie> Friedrichshaffen was March <@MikkelPaulson> but huge PR opportunity <@MikkelPaulson> I like the idea of Ottawa <+Rintaran> There will be a brand new convention center opening up near the airport in 2012 <+Rintaran> Hotel right across the street from it. <@MikkelPaulson> when? <~MikeBleskie> I wish we could afford the downtown convention centre ;_; <+Rintaran> Not entirely sure. Will have to take a ride to the airport to find out. <+Rintaran> The downtown convention center is booked through 2015 <@MikkelPaulson> (the airport, for anyone not familiar with the city, is super easy to get to) <@MikkelPaulson> Ottawa U? <~MikeBleskie> And it's an int'l airport <@MikkelPaulson> realistically most of them will be transferring through Montreal or Toronto though <~MikeBleskie> Ottawa U can take their million dollar insurance and... <@MikkelPaulson> heh, true <+Rintaran> Any conference of this magnitude is going to require million dollar insurance... <+Rintaran> Two million if there's alcohol involved. <@MikkelPaulson> but it's a very different sort of event with pirates <@MikkelPaulson> what if they start pillaging <~MikeBleskie> Well, they do have a suitable hall <@MikkelPaulson> convention centre would probably have a liquor license <@MikkelPaulson> university doubtful <+Nuitari> got to go <+Nuitari> cya all <+Nuitari> good luck <+Rintaran> Bye Nuit! <@MikkelPaulson> okay ttyl <+Rintaran> I'll take a trip sometime this week and see if I can't get details on the new place. I'll pass'm on if I get'm <@MikkelPaulson> I wouldn't mind taking off soon either <@MikkelPaulson> thumb fatigue <@MikkelPaulson> holding the phone sideways (the comfortable way) prevents me from seeing what anyone else is saying <+Rintaran> I think we've covered everything we really need to for the night. Any objections Bleskie? <@MikkelPaulson> sounds good to me <@MikkelPaulson> but we're down with a 2012 bid? <@MikkelPaulson> no objections <@MikkelPaulson> haha <+Rintaran> If we can get some fundraising in motion, sure. <+Rintaran> I think it's early personally, but it's worth a go. <@MikkelPaulson> I agree <+Rintaran> I still think a mega-bash in 2015 would be the way to go. <@MikkelPaulson> but it's a sink-or-swim moment <+Rintaran> Anyhow, as we're now under quota, adjourned? <@MikkelPaulson> and huge PR for a small party if we do it right <@MikkelPaulson> adjourned. <@MikkelPaulson> now going to do some thumb stretches <+Rintaran> heh. C-ya. <@MikkelPaulson> take care <@MikkelPaulson> thanks for coming
 * ~MikeBleskie smacks scshunt around with a large trout

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