FC 2011-12-08 Transcript

[21:02] <@Rintaran> 9:00pm Eastern Time. Federal Council Meeting is due to begin. [21:04] <@Rintaran> Vulliez, I know you're kicking around, care to pipe in? [21:05] <@svulliez> Hello [21:05] <@svulliez> Is this the time? I'm never sure which time is the real time. Shifting timezones also messes with me. [21:05] <@Rintaran> Yup. It's 9:00pm Eastern. [21:06] <@Rintaran> Are you in Winnipeg, or back in BC? [21:06] <@svulliez> BC now, for a few months at least [21:06] <@svulliez> My plan is to go on a canada-wide tour to network with occupiers [21:06] <@Rintaran> Nice. [21:06] <@svulliez> in the spring. [21:07] <@svulliez> depending on how the PPCA is going, I will promote it as well. [21:07] <@Rintaran> Give me a sec man. I just need to grab my PPCA bag from downstairs. There's something I need. [21:07] <@svulliez> i'd like to be promoting a piratethispolicy.ca type thing... [21:08] <@svulliez> and a platform based around evidence and reason, although I know that doesn't seem to be a popular opinion with pirate-conservatives [21:09] <@Rintaran> back. I take it no one showed up while I was gone. [21:11] <@Rintaran> Well, we do attract people from both sides of the spectrum. [21:11] <@Rintaran> I think I'm the only lefty in all the pirates showing up at meetings here in Ottawa. [21:12] <@Rintaran> It may be more of the need to accumulate, sift through, and evaluate extensive amounts of data in order to form a proper "evidence" and "reason" based reply throwing people off though. [21:13] <@svulliez> Perhaps. I don't have a problem with conservatism, I just have a problem with people not believing in evidence and logic. I have a big problem with it. [21:13] <@Rintaran> Additionally, although evidence and reason may indicate something is better, the transition period is often incrediably disruptive. That is another thing that scares people. [21:14] <@svulliez> That isn't to say all of my viewpoints are based around reason and logic, in fact I too have biases (including a radical opposition to intellectual property) - but if someone is going to convince me to tone down my opinion, they are going to do it through reason and science. [21:15] <@svulliez> Anything else is a waste of both of our times. I'd like it if we could draw a line in the sand about the kinds of discussions and debates that we are to have [21:15] <@Rintaran> Understandable, but in turn, you'll have to provide reason and science to back up your own claims. It can make for some very long and tedious debates. [21:15] <@svulliez> If we want to build a comprehensive platform and be able to debate it effective and be right, we can just pretend that we live in a system not governed by consistent rules. [21:16] <@Rintaran> However, we're off track from the topic. I do believe that we should expand the platform. [21:16] <@Rintaran> I also believe that calling out to people to help us build it is a great idea. [21:16] <@svulliez> Logistics aside, we need to commit to ideals that will stand the test of time. [21:17] <@svulliez> I agree. We should expand the platform. [21:17] <@Rintaran> However, I think a good starting point will come not only from the four ideals we've outlined in the new constitution, but also from the debates and candidacy of individuals for the Political Board. [21:18] <@svulliez> I agree. [21:19] <@svulliez> Although truthfully, and I know this a bit of a dick move at this point in the game, I have serious doubts about this new constitution. [21:19] <@Rintaran> Speaking of which, I've made it known to Mikkel two weeks ago, and to Stephane last week that I will be running to become a member of the political board. [21:20] <@svulliez> Specifically how the future of the party is being shaped by people who may not even stick around... What if all of the new leaders hate it? I guess its not a productive line of thought.. [21:20] <@Rintaran> Definitely a dick move considering all the consultations of the population of the PPCA that went in to making it, including your own. Which parts do you have issue with? [21:22] <@svulliez> Just the fact that it's a permanent document being written by impermanent individuals that doesn't have a particularly realistic outline on how we can function more effectively, but I'll definitely bite my tongue and see how it goes. [21:22] <@svulliez> the more experience I've had with large groups of activists, the more I've seen how they generally hate imposed structures [21:22] <@svulliez> I don't think there is anything wrong with the document itself particularly. I'll let it go completely. dust in the wind. It will work. [21:23] <@svulliez> it's way better than what we have. [21:23] <@Rintaran> Heh. It's way better than what we have, it provides a realistic method for modification, and it also puts us more in line, structure wise, to separate the operations from the political. This should help put the right people in the right places. [21:24] <@Rintaran> Assuming we get the people. [21:25] <@Rintaran> I sent out a brand-new vote-email to be translated last Saturday because I gave up on Mikkel ever sending the thing (he's promised for months, and the translator never received it). [21:25] <@svulliez> : - I [21:25] <@Rintaran> I was told I should have it back within a week, so it should be finished translation Saturday the latest. [21:25] <@svulliez> Cool. [21:25] <@svulliez> I am glad. [21:25] <@Rintaran> Even if it's not, I'm going to send my version to go out English only, if need be. [21:26] <@svulliez> Where are we keeping the records of the planned elections? [21:26] <@svulliez> We're going to need to start issuing calls for candidates, are we not? [21:26] <@Rintaran> I believe I CCed the directors on it. I had the dates for the constitution vote set to run over next week. [21:27] <@Rintaran> We will need to do so once the constitution has been approved. Until then, we can't officially issue calls. [21:28] <@Rintaran> That being said, I've already been poking some people that I think would make good candidates for the political or executive board. [21:29] <@Rintaran> I've also contacted both the Candidates-in-Waiting and the former-candidates to get things rolling in preparation for the 2015 election. [21:29] <@Rintaran> All of the Candidates-in-Waiting have now been in contact with me and we're starting to compile a wishlist. [21:29] <@Rintaran> From Stephane's reply to my recent email, they should have @pirateparty addresses shortly. [21:30] <@svulliez> Wonderful. I know some people in Vancouver who may be interested too, in running [21:31] <@Rintaran> As candidates for parliament, or for the political/executive boards? [21:37] <@svulliez> The political and executive boards I think [21:37] <@Rintaran> That would be great. We could certainly use a great many more hands at helping to form policy. [21:38] <@Rintaran> It would also mean quicker voices to respond, and more local work to build the party where its needed in order to form a good electoral base. [21:38] <+Nuitari> Hi [21:39] <@Rintaran> Hey Stephane. [21:40] <@Nuitari> sorry I'm late, was trying to make the baby sleep again [21:40] <@Rintaran> At least you made it. :) [21:41] <@Nuitari> not sure for how long [21:41] <@Nuitari> no translator for the email? [21:42] <@Rintaran> He confirmed receipt last Saturday. Said it would be done in 1-week. If I don't have it tmw, I want to send out the English-only anyways. [21:43] <@Rintaran> I just don't currently have the ability to do so. [21:44] <@Nuitari> I'm setting you up with that right now [21:44] <@Rintaran> Thank-you! [21:44] <@Rintaran> I'm guessing this will give me all sorts of stuff I've been prodding about at the same time won't it? [21:45] <@Nuitari> probably, what's the rest? [21:46] <@Rintaran> Wish I could remember. Every time I think of it, I mention it, and then it gets forgotten. [21:47] <@Rintaran> I do know I was going to ask for access to add CC and public domain files to CaPT though. [21:47] <@Rintaran> Oh, and being able to access the membership lists so I can assist candidates with contacting their local members wouldn't hurt. [21:47] <@Nuitari> when we started capt, we decided to include CC / public domain only if the author consents [21:48] <@Rintaran> By putting their work as CC haven't they already consented? [21:48] <@Nuitari> true they did from a license POV [21:49] <@Nuitari> but they might not like the political affiliation [21:49] <@Rintaran> And via public domain, it's again the same thing. [21:49] <@Nuitari> and by having their consent, we also limit a bit the content tracked, we're not trying to compete with isohunt / tpb here [21:49] <@Nuitari> also by getting consent, we could get reciprocal links too [21:50] <@Rintaran> Perhaps they will, perhaps they won't. If we tout it as being a collection of Canadian Content, freely shared I don't think the affiliation will be anything of much concern. [21:50] <@Nuitari> that might bring much more quality to it then quantity [21:51] <@Rintaran> We need to expand the content, regardless. We can focus on stuff that fits directly with our ideals, and contact the author with notification. [21:51] <@Rintaran> We can request that they provide a link back, as we will also be doing to their site, but mention that it is not required and if they would like us to remove it, we would do so and respect their wishes. [21:51] <@Rintaran> Thus, by not replying, they give their consent. [21:52] <@Nuitari> let's look for interesting things and start with that and build it up [21:52] <@Nuitari> oh [21:52] <@Nuitari> we could also do something else to raise funds [21:53] <@Rintaran> There's a lot we can do. What have you in mind? [21:53] <@Nuitari> filesonic and other direct download sites have affiliate programs, we could upload copies there [21:54] <@Rintaran> I'm not sure I'm quite seeing the connection. [21:54] <@Rintaran> They pay you to put up the torrent on their sites? [21:54] <@Nuitari> not the torrent, but the full file [21:55] <@Rintaran> Ah. Well that's not a bad idea. [21:55] <@Nuitari> that way we also can stop worrying about seeding [21:55] <@Rintaran> Good idea. [21:56] <@Rintaran> I'm going to start compiling the WikiLeaks - Canada documents into a single file structure. [21:56] <@svulliez> But, bittorrent is a more effective system of downloading. Thats why we like it. [21:56] <@Rintaran> It'll be a good thing to add to our repertoire, and something we should probably have in our list. [21:56] <@svulliez> multiple seeders is better than one source. [21:56] <@svulliez> yeah good idea Rintaran. I support that fully [21:57] <@Nuitari> doesn't have to be exclusive [21:58] <@Rintaran> Nope. Multiple locations, multiple paths, multiple sources. : [21:58] <@Rintaran> :) [21:59] <@Rintaran> So, I take it as the only NPO officer, it's up to you to setup the upload account then Stephane? [21:59] <@Nuitari> yeah [21:59] <@Nuitari> but I can't for filesonic [21:59] <@Rintaran> No? [21:59] <@Nuitari> I work there and the tos forbid it, so someone else will have to open it [22:00] <@Nuitari> or at least have someone else's name [22:00] <@Rintaran> Throw my name on it. So long as it has the PPCA Fund as the recipient of any funds, I'm cool. [22:00] <@Nuitari> ok [22:00] <@Nuitari> let's have some content lined up too [22:02] <@Rintaran> CC content, Wikileaks - Canada documents, current CaPT files? [22:02] <@Nuitari> yeah [22:02] <@Rintaran> Deadline next Thursday? [22:03] <@svulliez> We should host some of Doctorow's CC work- I beleve he already Ok'd it to travis [22:03] <@Nuitari> also keep any emails you have OK'ing something [22:05] <@Rintaran> I need to pick up another collapsable folder... I'm out of tabs for all my hard- copies. [22:05] <@Rintaran> I print everything for official documentation. [22:05] <@Rintaran> Every e-mail, newsletter, transcript, report... [22:06] <@Rintaran> Horrible for the environment, but great for protecting my butt. [22:06] <@Nuitari> ... [22:06] <@Nuitari> use imap on the mail server [22:06] <@Nuitari> keep copies there [22:06] <@Nuitari> they get backed up [22:07] <@Rintaran> I believe I am. But I still like having a hard copy lying around for when my computer incinerates, like it did during the election when I had to file the EFR [22:09] <@Rintaran> Anyhow, onward from my horrible backing up process and CaPT. [22:10] <@Rintaran> As we currently have quorum, it may be a good idea to vote on the required alteration to the NPO bylaws? [22:10] <@Nuitari> we need all the federal council for that [22:11] <@svulliez> Hm... What if we just did it? [22:11] <@Nuitari> if we have approval of everyone by email that's fine [22:11] <@svulliez> I don't think bureaucracy is the answer. [22:12] <@Rintaran> Ok... What about taking care of the issue of the expiring domains? We can probably handle that as we have quorum. [22:14] <@Nuitari> sure [22:14] <@Nuitari> that's a PR thing anyways [22:15] <@Rintaran> I believe we have internetmatters.ca, votepirate.ca, and wikileaks- pirateparty.ca that are expiring shortly? [22:15] <@svulliez> hahah I forgot we registered that last one [22:15] <@svulliez> because we were so spooked that we'd get shut down [22:16] <@Rintaran> So let's wrap those three motions out quickly then. [22:16] <@svulliez> I'm not particularly attached to any of those names, votepirate.ca is probably the one most worth keeping [22:17] <@Rintaran> votepirate.ca is the only one I think we should keep as well. [22:17] <@Rintaran> Stephane? [22:18] <@Nuitari> yeah [22:18] <@Nuitari> dunno aboyut internetmatters.ca [22:19] <@Nuitari> wikileaks-pirateparty.ca we should let go [22:19] <@Nuitari> expensive registrar [22:19] <@Nuitari> and no point in keeping it [22:20] <@Rintaran> I think it sounds like we've come to a consensus. [22:20] <@Rintaran> Do we need a motion or is this good enough? [22:21] <@Nuitari> so what do I do about internetmatters.ca? [22:21] <@Nuitari> wait to see if we actually use it? [22:22] <@Rintaran> If we aren't using it by the expiry date, let it go. [22:23] <@svulliez> agreed [22:23] <@Rintaran> If we find a good use for it between now and then, we can renew. But otherwise it doesn't really make any fiscal sense. It would be a waste of our memberships funds, and we've done too much of that with some of the failed PR moves of the past. [22:25] <@Rintaran> Now, I have a local meeting here in Ottawa on Tuesday night. Is there anything that either of you would like me to ask the local members? [22:26] <@Nuitari> donate >= 100$ and get a flag? [22:28] <@Rintaran> That is already in capital letters on my agenda. [22:28] <@Rintaran> David will be very happy to hear that. Are they in? [22:33] <@Nuitari> no not yet [22:39] <@Rintaran> Well, unless either of you have somethign else, I guess we can call the council meeting to a close? Psema wanted to say something but his phone died on him before he could get in. [22:39] <@Rintaran> He'll e-mail me the details and I'll pass it on through the council when I do. [22:42] <@svulliez> Really want to establish that I am a hard line extremist on science and reason [22:43] <@svulliez> and if we can't come up with a way to acknowledge them, I may leave for a party that will [22:43] <@svulliez> I don't mean that as a threat, like my way or the highway type stuff [22:43] <@Nuitari> uh? [22:44] <@svulliez> but this specific way forged over thousands of years by hundreds of geniuses is the answer, and if our party doesn't roll with science, I am going to find one that does [22:44] <@Nuitari> what makes you think we don't? [22:45] <@svulliez> Because anytime i have brought up the issue of including science and reason as a platform pillar its been hotly debated. [22:45] <@svulliez> I just started a thread for discussion on that subject [22:46] <@Nuitari> on the forum? [22:46] <@Rintaran> Yeah. [22:47] <@svulliez> I'mgoing to have a hard time debating it rationally because a lot of anti- science talking points send me into indignant rage.. :( [22:47] <@svulliez> I'll try my best not to step on anyone's toes or say anything offensive, for the sake of my suggestion [22:50] <@Nuitari> I think it's bad to have it as an explicit pillar, but it should be the basis for the platform [22:50] <@Nuitari> a lot of people seem to hate science and reason [22:51] <@svulliez> My defense would be that a lot of people seem to hate piracy too... [22:51] <@Rintaran> I suppose we could go with magic and emotionally-driven response. j/k [22:51] <@svulliez> We need to be in the business of what is right, not what people want to hear [22:52] <@Nuitari> we're in politics [22:52] <@Nuitari> it's all about what people want to hear and none of what is right [22:52] <@svulliez> That's why we're a third party, because we tell people what they need to hear and not what they want to hear [22:53] <@Nuitari> right, and it's also how to fail in politics and remain a third party [22:53] <@Nuitari> we need to write the platform using science / reason, then write it again in the way people want to hear it [22:53] <@Nuitari> else no one will listen [22:53] <@svulliez> I find it kind of disengenuous in a party about transparency to try to hide that we like consistent logic and evidence because of a very small group of voters who are afraid of having their irrational beliefs questioned [22:54] <@svulliez> the fact that this is even a conversation speaks volumes about the political climate in our country [22:54] <@Nuitari> yeah [22:55] <@Nuitari> unfortunately it's the way the game is played [22:55] <@Rintaran> Shitty climate, it be true. [22:55] <@Nuitari> people didn't vote 40% to the cons based on reason [22:55] <@Nuitari> and I'm quite happy in providing quotes / scientific facts to people who want it [22:55] <@Nuitari> but the main public thing has to be targeted to the public [22:56] <@svulliez> I think that a pillar of science and reason is going to engage power users of the internet, redditors, etc.and bring us the volunteers we need [22:57] <@svulliez> these people who are afraid of science and reason enough that they reject the concepts are _not_ who we want in the party [22:58] <@Nuitari> right, but they are those that will vote for the party if we talk ot them correctly [22:58] <@Nuitari> in fact we could aim at journos and bloggers and hope they spread the message for us [23:00] <@svulliez> without a specific promise to abide by science and reason, the party is doomed. You can not have meaningful debate without acknowledging the need for logic and evidence. You can not. [23:02] <@svulliez> If we're going to let a small irrational minority determine the course of our party, we may as well be pandering to UFO enthsiasts, Alex Jones types, shapeshifting reptillians, bigfoot, etc. [23:02] <@Nuitari> of course not [23:02] <@Nuitari> we have to pander to a majority of people [23:02] <@Nuitari> those out there that want to feel fuzzy, warm and comforted when we speak [23:02] <@Nuitari> listen to any leaders debate [23:03] <@Nuitari> with the main parties [23:03] <@Nuitari> they are the main parties because they know how to win the votes [23:03] <@Nuitari> not because of science and reason in their arguments [23:04] <@svulliez> There has never been a third option based on science. It's always dogma versus dogma. [23:04] <@svulliez> I don't think it should be our main talking point, but that is a PR issue not a political council issue [23:04] <@svulliez> the political councils M.O. is to be right [23:04] <@Nuitari> there is no problem in using science in writing the platform [23:05] <@Nuitari> but when we explain the platform, or write out the public version, people must read it and go " I really feel good about them " or " omg this is scary, thankfully they know how to fix it " [23:06] <@Rintaran> Actually, science, economics and facts should be the bulk of the complete version of the platform, where things are costed out and planks fully developed. [23:06] <@Rintaran> The short platform contains the highlights that pander, with only a handful of facts there, but a link to the full platform. [23:06] <@Nuitari> right [23:06] <@svulliez> I agree with both of you. It's a public relations thing. It's important we have a simple version for low information voters, and a complicated version for people who really want to know and understand [23:07] <@Nuitari> right [23:07] <@Rintaran> So, we say something like, We'll save money on pharmaceuticals for hospitals, thereby allowing us to hire more doctors and nurses to help you get the aid you need. [23:08] <@Nuitari> most people dont' care about the community also, they care about themselves and what they'll get out of it (less taxes, more health care, more pretent safety and so on) [23:08] <@Rintaran> And then in the long platform, we explain how removing/reducing patent terms on pharmaceuticals will save $X, force innovation, etc [23:08] <@Nuitari> Rintaran: also explain how more doctors could be hired from the freed up funds [23:09] <@svulliez> I am in agreement. [23:09] <@svulliez> It seems we are agreement about most things [23:09] <@Nuitari> when I campaigned, people didn't care much about the cost of their prescription, but much more about getting a doctor [23:09] <@svulliez> except whether to "come out of the closet" of logic and evidence [23:10] <@Nuitari> also most provinces budgets are published online, that would help us quantity a lot of things [23:10] <@Rintaran> Is the Federal budget online as well? [23:10] <@Nuitari> yeah hopefully [23:13] <@svulliez> haha can't decide if it's funny or tragic that evidence and logic are areas that scare away voters [23:13] <@Nuitari> it's very tragic actually [23:13] <@svulliez> I agree. [23:13] <@Nuitari> and it feels to me that it's been a serious decline over the decade [23:14] <@Nuitari> when things change a lot, people do get scared and bring back traditions [23:17] <@svulliez> This is why I feel it is important to commit to logic and evidence [23:17] <@svulliez> Canada and the world are headed down a dark path [23:17] <@svulliez> we're not leading the polls right now, we don't have much to lose and we actually have a lot to gain [23:18] <@Nuitari> politics is sure an ugly thing [23:18] <@svulliez> manufactured consent, propaganda, and the will to conform are ugly things [23:19] <@svulliez> Politics can be beautiful, we just have to design beautiful politics [23:20] <@svulliez> I think people have a taste for truth. It may not be election 2015, but having the strongest, most rational platform of all isn't going to really hurt our quest for a seat [23:24] <@svulliez> Politics is an ugly beast, yes. I understand the playing public opinion thing and all that... but really [23:24] <@svulliez> if we're not going to be the change we need to see... who will? [23:24] <@svulliez> this whole conversation is really bumming me out. wish science was cool. all those geniuses worked hard on it for us. [23:25] <@Nuitari> there is no problem in basing the platform on science, but we have to present it on emotion [23:25] <@Nuitari> svulliez: Steve Jobs vs Dennis Ritchie [23:25] <@Nuitari> both died at around the same time [23:25] <@Nuitari> only one made the media [23:26] <@Nuitari> and not the one that invented the things that actually mattered over decades [23:26] <@Nuitari> it's the sad world we live in [23:26] <@Nuitari> a good sound bite is worth much more then a thought out and complete argument [23:27] <@svulliez> Yeah. It's sad. But we can be a piece of the solution. The way to do that is not always play their game. If we're going to be popular enough to be a threat, there is no shortage of ways the media can spin us [23:28] <@svulliez> it is important we have a consistent ideology. [23:29] <@svulliez> this discussion is a bit circular...but I am serious about this being a possible make-or-break issue for me. [23:29] <@svulliez> we can't really come to a conclusion on it anyways [23:29] <@svulliez> any other points that need to be brought up? [23:29] <@Nuitari> who is head of PR? [23:29] <@svulliez> I am "press relations" now I think... I don't really know what is what [23:30] <@Nuitari> can we get something up about switzerland? [23:30] <@Nuitari> whoever is doing PR need to subscribe to a bunch of good rss feeds and be quick on reposting / commenting [23:34] <@Rintaran> If it gets on the main-site as a blog post, we have someone copying them over to the Google+ page. And they can also be swung over to the Facebook/twitter. [23:34] <@Nuitari> we could use a facebook / twitter plugin too [23:34] <@svulliez> We'd be good to have a few dedicated people handling that in the future, after the election [23:35] <@Rintaran> Google+ we have. We'll have to see what we get post-election. [23:35] <@Rintaran> But I really must be going guys. [23:36] <@svulliez> If you guys need me, I'll be weeping about not being able to admit that we use a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe and [23:37] <@svulliez> that we support the capacity human beings have to make sense of things, to establish and verify facts, and to change or justify practices, institutions, and beliefs. [23:37] <@svulliez> follow the tear trail if you would like to find me [23:40] <@Rintaran> G'night all.

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