FC 2011-01-27 transcript

[21:32] <~MikkelPaulson> I'll call the meeting to order [21:32] <~MikkelPaulson> agenda is here https://www.pirateparty.ca/forum/index.php?topic=753.0 [21:33] <~MikkelPaulson> Zblewski: are you up-to-date with the Tunisia situation? [21:33] <+Zblewski> So far, yes. [21:33] <~MikkelPaulson> what's the latest? [21:34] <+TravisMmmm> I think Egypt is a bigger issue than Tunisia now, since Tunisia has pretty much died down [21:34] <+Zblewski> Still a fluid situation, and protesters still demand a fully new government. Our government made a short statement, they aren't happy at stories that some of the old gurard may have come to Canada [21:34] <+Zblewski> Egypt is now full-blown [21:34] <+Zblewski> Internet is rumoured to be completely shut down [21:35] <+Zblewski> 3G networks are disappearing there [21:35] <~MikkelPaulson> is there a Pirate Party there? [21:35] <+Zblewski> Self-immolation attempts [21:35] <+Zblewski> in Egypt? I'm not sure. [21:35] <~MikkelPaulson> if not, it may be difficult for us to intervene [21:36] <~MikkelPaulson> all of our actions in Tunisia have been through/in support of PPTN [21:36] <+Ayes> If there is, they don't have a website. Which is bad news. [21:36] <~MikkelPaulson> yeah [21:37] <+Ayes> Pirate Parties have websites. [21:37] <+TravisMmmm> I don't see why " [21:37] <~MikkelPaulson> http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Parties_International [21:37] <~MikkelPaulson> seems not [21:37] <~MikkelPaulson> have they been discussing Egypt at all at the meetings? [21:37] <+TravisMmmm> saying "hey the oppressive Egyptian government is getting what it deserves we support the protesters" [21:38] <~MikkelPaulson> we're holding daily war councils with other pirate parties worldwide on the situation in Tunisia [21:40] <~MikkelPaulson> what do you think, is there anything practical we can do to intervene in Egypt with or without other pirate parties? [21:40] <~MikkelPaulson> we're already leading a project to provide VPN services originally intended for Tunisia but available worldwide [21:40] <+TravisMmmm> Right now people are putting up TOR bridges [21:40] <+Ayes> If they have internet, that is. [21:41] <+TravisMmmm> Ayes: thats true [21:41] <+Ayes> Tor is great. But it's not compatible with analog books. [21:41] <+TravisMmmm> We can also encourage Canada to stop any involvement with the Egyptian government [21:41] <+TravisMmmm> Currently the United States is supporting the Egyptian government [21:42] <+TravisMmmm> I don't know if Canada has made a public statement either way [21:42] <~MikkelPaulson> that's true [21:42] <~MikkelPaulson> after the election, I'd like to appoint one of the Council to international relations [21:43] <~MikkelPaulson> there's a lot more we could do on the international scene, and that's something that doesn't require getting elected but may increase our exposure in the process [21:43] <+Ayes> I think we should issue a press release about the protests, approving of "any noble fight for democracy", express sympathy for the lives lost, and say that the violence is an unfortunate side effect from the fascism, not the protests, while at the same time condemning the use of violence. [21:43] <+Ayes> Reworded and written to perfection. [21:43] <+Ayes> Internet perfection. [21:44] <~MikkelPaulson> agreed [21:45] <+Zblewski> yes. [21:45] <+Ayes> We could include a request for the Canadian government to consider supporting the notion of democratic leadership in Egypt publicly. [21:45] <~MikkelPaulson> want to put something like that together, Zblewski [21:45] <+Zblewski> Opening a file now [21:45] <~MikkelPaulson> pad? [21:45] <+TravisMmmm> Ayes: thats basically the same thing I wrote on the thing that happened in Tuscon Arizona USA where that guy gunned down some congresswoman I said that it was unfortunate that someone used violence to carry out a message, but that the cause of the shooting was an abusive government which had pushed a citizen to the precipice. That could easily be reworded to [21:45] <+TravisMmmm> apply to egypt [21:45] <+Zblewski> I'm doing it privately right now [21:46] <~MikkelPaulson> okay [21:46] <+Ayes> Do either of you guys have a background in Communications? [21:46] <+Ayes> Do we have a party contact for press releases? [21:46] <+Zblewski> pr@pirateparty.ca [21:47] <+Ayes> Who is it? [21:47] <+Zblewski> the directors [21:47] <+Zblewski> Idunno if Tyler is still on there [21:47] <+Zblewski> but he's inactive [21:48] <+Ayes> Ah, but we have no direct writer for press releases ? Totally collaborative? [21:48] <~MikkelPaulson> anyone else on the PR committee? [21:48] <+Zblewski> There are scattered writers yet to reply back to me [21:48] <+Zblewski> I can try Gord Campbell though [21:49] <+Ayes> At the Wikileaks protest I had 3 people approach me with a background in communications, looking to help. [21:49] <+Ayes> By the end of the rally. I have contact information for them. [21:49] <+Zblewski> I'd like them [21:49] <+TravisMmmm> I think having a single head of Press Releases would be good, and it be their responsibility to get them written (hopefully with the help of a team but if there is no collaberation it falls on them to write it themselves) [21:49] <+Zblewski> Forward the info to bleskie@ [21:51] <+Ayes> I think the standard could be a specialized duty of a specific council member to manage press releases, collaborative rewrites encouraged with final edit going to a specialized communications expert. We could have several contacts for this. [21:51] <~MikkelPaulson> well it'd be nice to get the PR committee moving again [21:51] <+Zblewski> One really dedicated person with writing skills would be good, though it all needs to be vetted by council [21:51] <~MikkelPaulson> of course [21:51] <+TravisMmmm> Of course, I am not saying have them release it [21:52] <+Zblewski> I'm no longer in the position to work in one portfolio anymore [21:52] <+TravisMmmm> but have one person write it up, and then get a rubber stamp [21:52] <~MikkelPaulson> one portfolio? you mean like only PR? [21:52] <+Zblewski> Mhm [21:52] <+Ayes> I'll volunteer, even as just a member, not a director-at-large to contribute to press releases. [21:53] <~MikkelPaulson> sounds good [21:53] <+Ayes> I'd want to definitely have anything I come up with passed through a good editor, but I can get the ball rolling. [21:53] <+Zblewski> Query me your email address, I'll make you a temporary pad account [21:53] <~MikkelPaulson> I hope you two will volunteer a lot in the party whether or not you're elected [21:53] <~MikkelPaulson> we need every able-bodied person we can get [21:53] <+TravisMmmm> :D We can all fly to Alexandra and establish a Pirate Party for them, but I don't think that is very reasonable [21:54] <~MikkelPaulson> I don't speak Arabic [21:54] <~MikkelPaulson> :P [21:54] <+TravisMmmm> They speak French there too [21:54] <~MikkelPaulson> in Egypt? [21:54] <+TravisMmmm> Yes [21:54] <+TravisMmmm> oh [21:54] <+TravisMmmm> no [21:54] <+TravisMmmm> I am thinkin of Tunisia arnt it? [21:54] <+TravisMmmm> I*? [21:54] <+TravisMmmm> :P [21:54] <~MikkelPaulson> yes [21:54] <~MikkelPaulson> French is mostly west Africa [21:54] <~MikkelPaulson> northwest [21:54] <+TravisMmmm> >.< Yeah, well then... no no there is not much we can do [21:55] <+Ayes> You know, a lot of olive oil in north america is sourced from Tunisia, even ones that say "made in italy" [21:56] <~MikkelPaulson> I did not, no [21:56] <~MikkelPaulson> interesting [21:56] <+TravisMmmm> Usually it says "bottled in Italy" [21:56] <+Ayes> They only need a small fraction from Italy to print that, apparently. Mostly from Tunisia. [21:56] <+Ayes> The more you know. * [21:57] <~MikkelPaulson> okay, let's move along [21:57] <+Zblewski> Anyways [21:57] <~MikkelPaulson> unless anyone has something else to add? [21:58] <+Zblewski> Waiting from a response from PPI [21:58] <+Zblewski> On a discussion [21:58] <~MikkelPaulson> re: joining? [21:58] <+Ayes> I think the best course of action in regards to supporting other organizations or movements is to appeal to people's sense of idealistic morality, while providing a realistic “the world is not all black and white”explanation for our support. I see it as The Pirate Party sticking to it's ideals, while acknowledging the complexity of real world situations. [21:58] <+Nuitari> I have something to add too [21:59] <+Zblewski> Yes, Nuitari? [21:59] <~MikkelPaulson> he's alive! [21:59] <+Nuitari> it's about alternative to PayPal, whenever we can discuss it [21:59] <+Ayes> Flattr? [21:59] <+TravisMmmm> I think that would fit well for "Fundraising" [22:00] <~MikkelPaulson> indeed [22:00] <~MikkelPaulson> so we'll roll right along to that [22:01] <~MikkelPaulson> Nuitari: could you get us up-to-date on donations? [22:01] <+TravisMmmm> Shouldn't we make sure there is no other comments on Tunisia [22:01] <~MikkelPaulson> anything in the last few weeks? [22:01] <+Nuitari> we got about 100$ more in donation since the last meeting, sold a tshirt and a half-dozen memberships [22:01] <+Nuitari> there is also a letter I got today that is very nice and I'll share it with you and Jeff [22:02] <~MikkelPaulson> TravisMmmm: I'm assuming not as we've been discussing the subject for half an hour [22:02] <~MikkelPaulson> cool [22:02] <~MikkelPaulson> any new members from Calgary, Edmonton or Vancouver? [22:02] <~MikkelPaulson> I'm curious to see if our rallies had any effect [22:02] <+Nuitari> a few [22:03] <+Nuitari> also got a donation from someone who met Jeff [22:03] <~MikkelPaulson> cool [22:04] <+TravisMmmm> I still say the biggest way for us to make substantial cash is monthly donations [22:04] <+Nuitari> yeah [22:04] <~MikkelPaulson> how hard would that be to set up? [22:05] <+Nuitari> not very hard [22:05] <~MikkelPaulson> our donation system also needs to be cleaned up [22:05] <+TravisMmmm> PayPal has an automated system to start subscriptions [22:05] <+Nuitari> yeah [22:05] <+Nuitari> need to redo that whole process [22:05] <+Nuitari> but first I need to know what we'll support [22:05] <+Nuitari> PayPal is all fine but we all know what happenned with WL [22:06] <+TravisMmmm> Nuitari: If that honestly happened to us though, that would be more helpful than harmful [22:06] <+Nuitari> I thought I had a decent alternative, but to use the gateway part of the system (which we need) it is 229$ + 9$/month and we must have at least 10$ in transaction fee per month [22:06] <+TravisMmmm> "Major US Corporation Shuts Down Funding For Canadian Political Party" [22:07] <+Nuitari> PayPal Pro, which provide a similar service, charges 35$/month + the usual transaction fees [22:08] <+Ayes> You can still support the KKK with Mastercard. We're not worth their time to censor. Paypal will have to do for now. [22:08] <+Nuitari> and at the end of the day it still kind of sucks that it is MasterCard and Visa :/ [22:08] <+Nuitari> We can accept very small amounts from bitcoin and flattr [22:09] <+Ayes> the market is going to be flooded with alternatives as we move forward in time. [22:09] <~MikkelPaulson> BitCoin donations would be nice, but how would we report those to Elections Canada? [22:09] <+TravisMmmm> Are we allowed to convert bitcoin cash to CAD? [22:09] <+Nuitari> there is also Amex and Discovery, both of which are unpopular in Canada [22:09] <+Nuitari> TravisMmmm: yeah, the rate is about 0.40c per bitcoin [22:09] <+TravisMmmm> No, I know we *CAN* I meant... legally [22:10] <+Nuitari> MikkelPaulson: same as anonymous, which also means we can't accept more then 20$ from someone w/o their name [22:10] <+Nuitari> sure, as long as it doesn't go over 20$ [22:10] <~MikkelPaulson> so we can't accept more than ~50 coins [22:10] <+Nuitari> yeah [22:10] <+Nuitari> from one person [22:10] <+TravisMmmm> But we cannot reject money through bitcoin [22:10] <+TravisMmmm> if someone sends it, you get it [22:10] <+Nuitari> yeah [22:11] <~MikkelPaulson> at this point as far as I'm concerned accepting donations by BitCoin is on the principle alone [22:11] <+Nuitari> and if we can't prove it's elligible or anything we're supposed to send it to elections canada [22:11] <~MikkelPaulson> it's useless for just about anything practical [22:11] <+TravisMmmm> LOL [22:11] <+TravisMmmm> Lets call Elections Canada and tell them we have 100 bitcoins that they need to accept from us [22:12] <+Nuitari> TravisMmmm: we'll have to conver them and send the cheque [22:12] <~MikkelPaulson> that would be an interesting conversation [22:12] <~MikkelPaulson> BitCoin isn't exactly a universally-recognized currency though [22:12] <~MikkelPaulson> I'm not sure that they'd even care [22:12] <~MikkelPaulson> although I guess donation limits apply to material donations as well, which is the other category into which BC could potentially fall [22:13] <+Nuitari> any donation we need to convert it to a cash equivalent at fair market rate [22:13] <+TravisMmmm> Monthly donations is critical (I feel) [22:13] <+Nuitari> and if someone were to give us 500$ of material, with no name and address we'd have to pay the govt that amount :/ [22:13] <+Nuitari> TravisMmmm: yes they are [22:14] <+Ayes> I think it's all good under the anonymous donation law Nuitari mentioned, if there is a problem with accepting bitcoins we can comply and complain [22:14] <+TravisMmmm> Also if we had our own payment gateway, then we could have specific canvassers on the street soliciting monthly donations (which again, I think we can get to be popular enough to fund paying a couple of people after a while) [22:14] <+Ayes> What sort of monthly donations are we talking about here? [22:15] <+Ayes> Mandatory monthly fees? [22:15] <+TravisMmmm> People signing up for 20 dollars a month or something [22:15] <+TravisMmmm> no [22:15] <+TravisMmmm> just the option of [22:15] <+Ayes> That's an interesting idea, but what could we really offer? [22:16] <+TravisMmmm> Most organizations try to get people to be monthly paying members because it gives them "guaranteed" income. [22:16] <+Ayes> Is there an incentive for that on their part other than being rich and supporting us? [22:16] <+TravisMmmm> Also people tend to just say "yeah 20 dollars a month thats not much" and then they sign up and forget about it [22:16] <+TravisMmmm> Ayes: Well we could offer gifts and stuff for monthly members [22:16] <+Zblewski> We do plan on getting more types of items like ties and such [22:17] <+Ayes> Cufflinks would blow my mind [22:17] <+Zblewski> It's a matter of finding a good provider [22:17] <+Zblewski> and popularity of the item [22:18] <+Ayes> I think that is an interesting idea, but I'd be hesitant to implement it just yet. [22:18] <~MikkelPaulson> when we were first designing membership cards I suggested a unique card design [22:18] <+Zblewski> That's our point, we need to see if there's interest [22:19] <~MikkelPaulson> not practical with our printing process though [22:19] <+TravisMmmm> Honestly if we can find a good canvassing training and good people to do it... we could afford to pay people to work full time in all of the major cities in Canada. [22:19] <~MikkelPaulson> but we could offer VPN access to regular donors… [22:19] <+TravisMmmm> And having people who are on the street full time helps us even outside of getting more members [22:19] <+TravisMmmm> but they can pass out fliers and stuff too [22:19] <~MikkelPaulson> TravisMmmm: even major charities don't turn a profit on donations until year 2 [22:19] <+Nuitari> ok but do we continue with the credit card processor, signup with PayPal Pro or what? [22:20] <+TravisMmmm> :P I am not talking about anything on a short term. [22:20] <+Zblewski> I say continue, but try and expand and improve cash/cheque donations [22:20] <+TravisMmmm> Though I don't fully agree [22:21] <+Ayes> PayPal Pro + increased focus on Bank Transfer and Cash/cheque donations is the way to go. If we are subject to economic attacks, we will be the long term winner. [22:23] <+Ayes> People will want to help us more if we need help. [22:23] <+TravisMmmm> Ayes: exactly [22:23] <~MikkelPaulson> I think you guys are thinking in terms of BitTorrent economics [22:23] <~MikkelPaulson> this is a legal organization [22:23] <~MikkelPaulson> we don't need contingency plans in case our accounts are shut down [22:23] <+TravisMmmm> MikkelPaulson: not at all [22:24] <+Ayes> It will be a pain for membership dues until reliable alternatives are available, but I doubt we will lose PayPal over this. [22:24] <+Zblewski> At this point, cash is the safest option. Expansion on this will be needed, but that means getting people to learn how to collect and document these contributions properly, nationwide [22:24] <+TravisMmmm> MikkelPaulson: look at GreenPeace, PETA, SSCS, or any of the other activist organizations. They are fully legal in their operations -- but they make themselves out to be targets of attack that way people support them more [22:25] <+TravisMmmm> I know thats also what political parties do, they say "we need more money because the Liberal Party is saying this" [22:25] <~MikkelPaulson> Greenpeace and PETA have been known to break the law… [22:25] <+Zblewski> ^ [22:25] <+Zblewski> Infamously [22:25] <~MikkelPaulson> indeed [22:26] <+TravisMmmm> GreenPeace and PETA have been given the credit for bad things... but that doesn't mean they did it: Most of the things like "Bombings" are carried out by ELF and ALF [22:26] <+Ayes> What about Google Checkout, Moneybookers, etc? I heard also of another payment processor on the way, but the name escapes my mind. [22:26] <+TravisMmmm> And then people think PETA and GreenPeace [22:26] <+TravisMmmm> If they broke the law they would lose their tax status [22:26] <~MikkelPaulson> still, stuff like assault, trespassing, etc. [22:26] <+TravisMmmm> If they broke the law, they would lose their tax status [22:27] <~MikkelPaulson> Google Checkout is US-only [22:27] <~MikkelPaulson> not sure about Moneybookers [22:27] <+Nuitari> Ayes: google checkout isn't in Canada yet, moneybookers are barely better then crooks [22:27] <+TravisMmmm> I don't think MoneyBookers is US Only [22:27] <+TravisMmmm> I was going to say it seems sketchy [22:28] <+Ayes> Let's not get into the business of debating the merit of outside organizations without cause. PETA and GreenPeace seem to want positive things in the world, so let's keep anyone who is a potential ally on our side, fellas. [22:29] <+Ayes> I had something about fundraising [22:29] <~MikkelPaulson> shoot [22:29] <+TravisMmmm> Ayes: the point is still the same: If people see us as a target (*and we are a target*) then they are more motivated to open their cheque books [22:29] <~MikkelPaulson> we don't go for any particularly formal structure here [22:29] <~MikkelPaulson> aside from occasionally sticking to an agenda [22:30] <+TravisMmmm> There are people in power right now who are calling us Radical Extremists (and as soon as something like that is said, there should be a newsletter going out saying "So and so says that we are radical extremists, here is what we have done, here is what we are doing, we need your help" [22:31] <+Ayes> I appreciate the open format, I just think that dancing onto subjects that could alienate voters might not be beneficial. [22:32] <+Ayes> PETA and Greenpeace have support, and theres no need to give anyone an agenda against us, because we're already taking on big powers. [22:33] <+Ayes> I disagree with Travis when he says that we should try to look like a fringe group. We should explicitly avoid looking for sympathy dollars. [22:34] <+Zblewski> I want to work into the mainstream. [22:34] <+TravisMmmm> As per my example before thats hardly a "fringe move" [22:34] <+TravisMmmm> It's very common within all mainstream organizations and political parties [22:34] <+Ayes> This movement has power by itself, we don't need to consciously manipulate anyone. [22:35] <+TravisMmmm> I get newsletters from every major political party in Canada, many non-profit organizations, etc [22:35] <+TravisMmmm> they all do the same thing [22:35] <+Ayes> And if we're painting ourselves as an extremist, we're going to dissuade other Parties from paying attention to us. [22:35] <+TravisMmmm> I don't think anyone is talking about being painted as an extremist [22:36] <+TravisMmmm> I think you are misreading my words (intentionally? I thought my example was clear), I am saying that if we are called an extremist, we should show the very rational things we do, and how we are just pushing for basic rights -- and that we need financial help so we can do more [22:37] <+Ayes> I was under the impression that you wanted to use this in public relations. [22:37] <+TravisMmmm> Yes I do. [22:38] <+Ayes> I don't think this should be a prominent talking point. [22:39] <+TravisMmmm> Okay okay I am just going to go through it all again: We need to play current events into our favour, when someone tries to put us down (or a cuase that we support down), we should make a newletter to all of our supporters explaining our position, and then make an appeal for a donation [22:40] <+TravisMmmm> (In the newletter style I call "Victory, Future, Donation" "Here is what we have done, here is what we are doing, this is why we need your help" ) [22:40] <+Ayes> wiki.pirateparty.ca/index.php/List_Of_Humourous_Allegations_Against_PPCA [22:40] <+Ayes> This is where people calling us names belongs, primarily. [22:40] <+TravisMmmm> And thats not a "Fringe" tactic, thats the exact same thing every major political party and organization does [22:41] <~MikkelPaulson> I don't think we should launch a continuous plea for donations [22:41] <~MikkelPaulson> every time we're concerned about something [22:41] <~MikkelPaulson> just have a donation drive once or twice a year [22:41] <+Zblewski> ^ [22:41] <+TravisMmmm> MikkelPaulson: when we have enough people maybe a once or twice a year drive would be fine [22:42] <+Ayes> A donation drive ought to have a specific cause too. Fund an election, rebuild the website into some sort of elegant social media monstrosity, fund a speaking tour, etc. [22:43] <+TravisMmmm> People anticipate getting asked for donations on a regular basis when they join a political party. Its also not like the newsletters will only be used for donations, its simply an addition to the newsletter. reminding everyone about our victories and our campaigns is always a nice thing to encourage activity [22:43] <+Ayes> General pleas for money are frowned upon in my mental real estate, I don't know how you guys feel. [22:44] <+Ayes> A donation link is a.o.k in newsletters, but I loathe pleas [22:44] <+Ayes> from Jimmy Wales to truth-out [22:44] <+Ayes> I'm tired of reading pleas. [22:44] <+Nuitari> pleas are never good [22:44] <+TravisMmmm> lol what Wikipedia does is your once a year donation drive thing [22:44] <+Zblewski> It lasts for like a month, though [22:45] <+Zblewski> and is very painful to look at [22:45] <~MikkelPaulson> a month that you have to spend staring at the terrifying visage of Jimmy Wales [22:45] <+TravisMmmm> Exactly, which is why inspirational newletters sent out regularly (which just so happens include a small message about needing money) is much better [22:47] <+Ayes> If you can get all those social media buttons in an e-mail, we could start hosting copies of our newsletters on site so they could be shared [22:47] <+Ayes> newsletter / press release archive [22:48] <+Ayes> include little donation links of course [22:48] <+TravisMmmm> http://us.greenpeace.org/site/MessageViewer?em_id=12201.0&dlv_id=14941 [22:48] <+TravisMmmm> read this, this is kinda what I was thinking [22:49] <+TravisMmmm> If you notice the donation appeal isn't gaudy or anything like you were thinking [22:49] <~MikkelPaulson> we should have a better mailing list system [22:49] <+TravisMmmm> I really like mailchimp but its an external site [22:50] <~MikkelPaulson> allow people to subscribe to newsletters, voting information, membership renewal information, donation and volunteer drives, local events, and maybe some other categories [22:50] <~MikkelPaulson> all of them checked by default on the registration form, of course [22:50] <~MikkelPaulson> that way we don't have people who are unhappy with the volume of email unsubscribing altogether [22:51] <+Ayes> Aye. [22:51] <+TravisMmmm> Did anyone read through that newsletter? [22:51] <~MikkelPaulson> they'd better, we spend long enough writing 'em :P [22:52] <+TravisMmmm> No the one I just linked too [22:52] <+TravisMmmm> to* [22:52] <+Ayes> It started with "Dear Greenpeace Supporter" and I realized it was a case of mistaken identity [22:52] <+TravisMmmm> lol well in the email it says "Dear Travis McCrea" :P [22:53] <+Ayes> I read the plea, and I'd want the Pirate Party to ideally not do that usually. [22:54] <+TravisMmmm> its a small link.. and then at the very bottom there is a little plea that is very short and just says "hey look we are doing these cool things but we need your money to do them" [22:55] <+Ayes> agree to disagree for now. One of the startling differences between your candidates. [22:55] <~MikkelPaulson> I guess we could put "donate" in the footer of the newsletter [22:55] <+Ayes> Vote wisely [22:55] <+Ayes> :P [22:55] <~MikkelPaulson> anything else to add on fundraising? [22:55] <+Ayes> Oh, I wanted to bring up also [22:56] <+TravisMmmm> (nothing from me) [22:56] <+Ayes> Zazzle sucks, and we need better merchandise. We should form a relationship with an online clothing company in Canada to do our merchandise. [22:56] <~MikkelPaulson> yes it does [22:56] <~MikkelPaulson> all future merch will be purchased in bulk and sold ourselves [22:57] <+Ayes> Why is that? If we partnered with a shirt supplier, we could save money and have continual merchandise. [22:57] <+TravisMmmm> We did Ayes [22:58] <+Zblewski> Dain got us a supplier, a school, that could no longer do our orders [22:58] <+TravisMmmm> Wait why can't they do anymore orders? [22:58] <+TravisMmmm> We can find another school [22:58] <+Ayes> Why a school? [22:58] <+Zblewski> Dain had a personal connection [22:58] <+TravisMmmm> (I have a US HS that does my organizations shirts) [22:58] <+Zblewski> and there was no labour fee [22:59] <+TravisMmmm> You should be able to find another HS that is willing to do it. [22:59] <+TravisMmmm> I am *positive* there is one in VC [22:59] <+TravisMmmm> (also there is at least one in Edmonton) [22:59] <+Zblewski> I don't have that kind of connection [22:59] <+TravisMmmm> You just have to have a phone to call your local high school [23:00] <~MikkelPaulson> which one? [23:00] <+TravisMmmm> Just start calling them [23:00] <+Ayes> I have a connection to a possible shirt lead. [23:01] <+TravisMmmm> Screen Printing is a class that is offered at a ton of schools [23:01] <+TravisMmmm> And they need orders so their students have shirts to do [23:02] <+Ayes> brosiah informs me that there is a community resource center that has a tendency to support political causes like this. I will look into that. [23:02] <+TravisMmmm> I love the idea of supporting education [23:02] <+Ayes> we have friends who are associated with it. [23:02] <+TravisMmmm> (more than anything else) [23:03] <+Ayes> We should look into all possible leads, and have a plurality of quality designs [23:03] <+Ayes> I think doing what the pirate bay does with bytelove and finding a supplier who supports our cause might be the peak though [23:03] <+TravisMmmm> Of course we should be open to anything, but working with a school (to me) would be much better than working with anyone else. [23:05] <+Ayes> I like the idea of supporting education. [23:07] <+Ayes> A regular supplier of standard shirts in a bytelove like arrangement should be our goal for availability purposes [23:07] <~MikkelPaulson> yeah [23:07] <~MikkelPaulson> that's been our problem so far [23:07] <+Nuitari_> bytelove? [23:07] <~MikkelPaulson> we got a big load of shirts [23:08] <~MikkelPaulson> but now we're running out and we have no agreement to make more [23:08] <+Ayes> bytelove does shirts for the pirate bay, they deal with all of the business and pass the money to TPB [23:09] <+Ayes> We could strike a similar deal splitting profits somehow, I'm sure. [23:09] <+TravisMmmm> Which still requires us to split profits [23:10] <+Ayes> Maybe we could use high schools to do limited runs of limited edition special design shirts, crowdsourced and voted on in the forums [23:11] <+Ayes> While maintaining a standard continually available design on a third party site [23:11] <+Ayes> That seems ideal to me. [23:12] <+Ayes> We could also look into pay-per-downloads for certain digital media. We could write an e-book or something, and charge money for it. We could compile a Pirate Party activism and resource guide, a zip file full of predesignated fliers, posters, helpful tips on making signage and throwing successful rallies and such. [23:12] <+Ayes> This is a fledgeling idea, but the overhead on a single digital download is nothing, so we should look into possibilities like this for our web store. [23:13] <~MikkelPaulson> rather go pay-what-you-want [23:13] <~MikkelPaulson> CC license it and give it out with donations of any amount [23:13] <+Ayes> I'm really into that. [23:15] <+TravisMmmm> Well I have been "selling" a special annotated version of Cory Doctorow's Little Brother for my organization (I emailed Cory Doctorow and he said that didn't count as "commercial" to him) [23:15] <+Ayes> It's destined to be torrented and spread anyways, calling it pay-what- you-want gives us a nice moral high ground while also encouraging modest regular style consumerism [23:15] <+TravisMmmm> It has a forward written by me, and every ten people who buy it, I write in their names as character names. [23:16] <+TravisMmmm> :) Gotta love BY NC [23:17] <+Ayes> That's an interesting idea. We should seek out things like this, political writers who care more about spreading the work and helping others to make change [23:17] <~MikkelPaulson> personally I like CC0 [23:17] <+TravisMmmm> We could go through the book and edit the book a bit so instead of it talking about Swedens Pirate Party it could talk about Pirate Party Canada [23:18] <+Nuitari_> also we need 2 new officer for the Fund [23:19] <~MikkelPaulson> does it matter who? [23:19] <+Eyes> Good thing rintaran is here. [23:19] <+Zblewski> What are the tasks of the fund? [23:20] <+Nuitari_> not really but they are supposed to be elected [23:20] <+Nuitari_> raising money for the party [23:21] <+Nuitari_> unfortunately while someone is an officer he can't be a candidate in the elections [23:21] <+Nuitari_> federal elections that is [23:22] <~MikkelPaulson> but they can be directors? [23:24] <+Nuitari_> yes [23:24] <+Eyes> For the record, I changed my name because of a technical problem when I tried to re-join after a browser malfunction [23:24] <~MikkelPaulson> no problem [23:26] <~MikkelPaulson> okay, well not everyone in the Council is planning on running for election [23:26] <~MikkelPaulson> so can we just appoint those who aren't running? [23:26] <~MikkelPaulson> they're elected, after all [23:26] <+Zblewski> That counts out Mikkel out ;) [23:27] <+Nuitari_> I dont really care I just said what the charter says [23:27] <+Eyes> I think that the real best way to raise money, apart from increasing merchandise, digital pay-what-you-want downloads of relevant literature, and offering a ``give us more money`` option is increasing membership as quickly as we can. [23:27] <~MikkelPaulson> I was elected :P [23:27] <~MikkelPaulson> in fact, Zblewski, you were elected by acclamation if I recall correctly [23:27] <+TravisMmmm> >.> Or were you? [23:28] <+Eyes> We need to celebrate and encourage the input of non-paying members in organization that helps the party. [23:28] <+TravisMmmm> ;) we need to encourage non paying members to be paid members ;) [23:29] <~MikkelPaulson> indeed [23:29] <~MikkelPaulson> which means that memberships need to start expiring [23:30] <~MikkelPaulson> Nuitari_: can you give me any ETA on that? [23:30] <+Eyes> it`s worth noting that a major creative piece of our potential members have to borrow their mom`s credit card, activity and ideology are worth more than money [23:30] <+Nuitari_> we can expire them and badger them to renew [23:31] <+Nuitari_> at any time [23:31] <+Nuitari_> also to consider is the cc processor [23:31] <+Nuitari_> recurring payments by cheque are a PITA [23:32] <+Nuitari_> paypal [23:32] <+Nuitari_> fucking iPhone [23:32] <+Nuitari_> paypal pro os easy to get but will cost more u [23:32] <+Nuitari_> in the long run [23:33] <+Nuitari_> the alternate one (elavon) has a higher up front cost but lower monthly and per transaction cost [23:33] <~MikkelPaulson> and it's not PayPal [23:33] <~MikkelPaulson> more importantly [23:33] <+Nuitari_> vote on it? [23:36] <+Nuitari_> choices are elavon, paypal pro or status quo [23:36] <+Eyes> Many Paypal alternatives will be available in the coming years. Save your money for now, go with Paypal pro. [23:36] <+TravisMmmm> I am with Eyes [23:37] <~MikkelPaulson> neither of you are eligible to vote [23:37] <+Eyes> we know [23:37] <~MikkelPaulson> what are the fees, Nuitari_? [23:37] <+Eyes> If we don`t have proper reoccuring fees, that is an elections canada issus [23:37] <~MikkelPaulson> how so? [23:38] <+Nuitari_> elavon is 229$ + 9$/month + 10$ minimum in transaction fee [23:38] <+Eyes> Sorry, I meant to say that could be an elections canada issue. [23:38] <+Nuitari> and 2.23% transaction fee [23:39] <+Nuitari> merchant account fees won't be [23:39] <+TravisMmmm> Nuitari: maybe I am missing something? "$10 min transaction fee"? [23:39] <+Nuitari> yes [23:40] <+TravisMmmm> Does that mean every time we make a transaction they will charge us $10? [23:40] <~MikkelPaulson> so by my math we have to clear $448.43 to make that [23:40] <+Eyes> no [23:40] <+Eyes> travis [23:40] <+Nuitari> what MikkelPaulson said [23:40] <+Eyes> It means they have to give us at least 10 [23:40] <~MikkelPaulson> we have to give them at least $10 [23:40] <~MikkelPaulson> and that's $10/mo? [23:40] <+Zblewski> That's a substantial chunk [23:40] <+Zblewski> Jeez [23:41] <+Eyes> Pay Pal Pro [23:41] <+Nuitari> yeah 10$/month of the 2.3% fee minimum [23:41] <~MikkelPaulson> okay [23:41] <~MikkelPaulson> PayPal is..? [23:41] <+Nuitari> PayPal Pro is 2.9% + 30c I think [23:41] <+Nuitari> + 35$/month [23:41] <+Nuitari> + it's PayPal [23:41] <~MikkelPaulson> (rintaran is going to bed, he'll post the minutes in the morning) [23:41] <~MikkelPaulson> + it's PayPal [23:41] <~MikkelPaulson> what fees are we paying now? [23:41] <~MikkelPaulson> with our existing account [23:42] <+Nuitari> 2.9% + 30c I think [23:42] <~MikkelPaulson> so what's the benefit of pro? [23:42] <+Nuitari> we collect the credit card # on our website and don't have to have people go through PayPal's website [23:42] <+Zblewski> More convenient, better CC usage [23:43] <+Nuitari> actually it's 45$/month cause we need AVS [23:43] <+Nuitari> worst case Elavon is better if we keep it for more then 2 years [23:44] <+Nuitari> but there is also an early termination penalty if we cancel before 2 years too [23:44] <~MikkelPaulson> and it's not PayPal [23:44] <+Eyes> Is there a paypal contract term? [23:45] <+Nuitari> no [23:45] <+Nuitari> but we also lose the PayPal seller protection for website initiated transactions [23:47] <+Eyes> I'm not familiar with what that means. [23:47] <+TravisMmmm> Doesn't our bank offer a credit card processing system? [23:48] <+Nuitari> TravisMmmm: much much more expensive [23:48] <+Nuitari> the only reason we're getting such a "low" rate is that I'm a costco executive member [23:50] <+Nuitari> Moneris (the one from BMO) starts at 60$/month + 3.1%... [23:52] <+TravisMmmm> >.> Speaking of banking... why is Google Ads giving me "Bad Credit" ads? >.< Do they know something I don't? [23:52] <+TravisMmmm> Sorry off topic [23:52] <+Nuitari> Eyes: the paypal selelr protection is an insurance against chargebacks [23:53] <+Eyes> How much later could they charge back on the pro system? [23:54] <+Nuitari> fee is 5 to 25$ + the amount of the transaction, up to 90 days [23:54] <+Eyes> so if anyone changes their mind within 90 days, or steals their moms credit card, or whatever, we get dinged, and the money gets taken away? [23:55] <+Nuitari> yeah [23:56] <+Nuitari> we do have some defense in saying no refund everywhere [23:56] <+Nuitari> but not much [23:59] <+Eyes> We'd still be paying less money, even with the occasional refund and fee [00:01] <+Eyes> I still think Paypal Pro may be the best short-term option [00:01] <+Nuitari> I'd rather wait until I see a good alternative emerge, and I'm not sure it will happen within 2 years as there is a stability we need to look for [00:01] <~MikkelPaulson> and people may be more comfortable dealing with PayPal, sadly enough [00:01] <+Nuitari> MikkelPaulson: Zblewski whare are your thoughts? [00:02] <~MikkelPaulson> I vote status quo [00:02] <+Zblewski> I'm not an expert on these systems [00:02] <+Eyes> Do we have a list of members, including their registration date kicking around? [00:03] <+Nuitari> yeah [00:03] <+Zblewski> but the status quo obviously needs to work for now, and the fees on Elavon seem astronomic [00:03] <+Zblewski> So, I'm with Mikkel [00:04] <+TravisMmmm> The nice thing about PayPal (I don't know anything about Elavon) is they also have a great API [00:04] <+Nuitari> Elavon's is basic but easy to implement and does what it needs to do [00:04] <+Eyes> We could start a tiresome manual phone / e-mail campaign to get people to renew on the basic paypal [00:06] <+Eyes> but collecting the fees is real important [00:06] <+Nuitari> I think the status quo is the worst option [00:06] <+TravisMmmm> Again if we can setup the system to work with PayPals subscription system [00:06] <+TravisMmmm> we wouldn't have to deal with any of that [00:06] <+TravisMmmm> it would just auto charge them yearly [00:06] <+TravisMmmm> or monthly [00:06] <+TravisMmmm> or whatever they sign up for [00:07] <+Nuitari> yeah but you can't do monthly contributions over the phone with that [00:08] <+Eyes> What is the problem with the moneris? [00:08] <+Nuitari> too expensive, we already have 2 cheaper options [00:08] <+Eyes> I thought it was only 60 a month? [00:09] <+Nuitari> plus the setup fee plus the higher transaction fee [00:09] <+Nuitari> the only reason Elavon is considered is that it's cheaper then PayPal on the medium to long term [00:10] <+Eyes> withdrawn, I misremembered the statistic for Elavon. [00:11] <~MikkelPaulson> what's your opinion, Nuitari? [00:12] <+Nuitari> If there are alternatives coming up, credit cards aren't going to be displaced soon [00:12] <+Nuitari> cheques are ok but suck for recurring payments [00:12] <+Nuitari> bank transfer never happenned and are too much of a hassle for various reasons [00:13] <+Nuitari> I would go with Elavon if only because in the long term they'll be cheaper [00:13] <+Nuitari> I think we need to either go with Elavon or PayPal Pro as accepting credit cards on our website will also give a higher level of credibility [00:13] <+Eyes> Is there a chance of an open source or otherwise awesome payment processor coming up that will do credit card stuff for cheaper? [00:14] <+Eyes> Than the first fee of Elavon [00:14] <+Zblewski> I think that's not practical to look at now [00:14] <+Zblewski> Don't bother yet [00:14] <+Nuitari> doubt it [00:14] <+TravisMmmm> I like Elavon [00:15] <+Nuitari> usually the total cost is a combination of the setup, monthly and minimum fees [00:15] <+Nuitari> those with lower setup tend to have higher monthyl and transactional fees [00:18] <~MikkelPaulson> I'm willing to support that [00:18] <~MikkelPaulson> you're Chief Agent, it's in your ballpark [00:18] <+Eyes> I think I'd side with Elavon over status quo, if it's going to be doing cyclical payments, we need consistency, and paypal fees are slightly more than Elavon on a yearly basis [00:19] <+Nuitari> also having a processor like that allows us to sollicit donations / memberships through the phone and not hope that someone remembers to carry through [00:19] <+Eyes> I'm convinced [00:19] <+Eyes> for Elavon. [00:19] <+Nuitari> plus we can also program some interface with the phone system for either elavon or paypal pro [00:19] <+Zblewski> As long as it's fully accessible for the public [00:20] <~MikkelPaulson> phone interface would be nice [00:21] <+Eyes> What if we had a quasi-micropayment system for subscriptions? Like a dollar a week or something? [00:22] <+Nuitari> then Elavon would be much cheaper [00:22] <+Zblewski> Sold [00:22] <~MikkelPaulson> likewise [00:23] <+Nuitari> alright I'll complete the signup with them [00:24] <+Eyes> I'm satisfied with this. [00:26] <~MikkelPaulson> okay, motion passed [00:26] <~MikkelPaulson> anything else to discuss? [00:26] <+Eyes> Do you guys have any thoughts on a dollar a week / four dollars a month / fiftysix dollars a year? [00:27] <+Eyes> Or similar pricing structures? [00:27] <+Nuitari> that would create a lot of paperwork but is manageable [00:28] <+Eyes> What about knocking down the yearly rate to 50 to encourage long-term membership? [00:29] <~MikkelPaulson> annual fee right now is $10 [00:29] <+Zblewski> =P [00:29] <+Eyes> I guess that's a pretty modest discount [00:29] <~MikkelPaulson> we're like the Ministry of Plenty now [00:29] <~MikkelPaulson> membership fees have been decreased from $10 to $50 [00:29] <+Eyes> hah [00:29] <+Eyes> but a dollar a week sounds pretty affordable [00:30] <~MikkelPaulson> it would be if people were getting something concrete [00:31] <+Eyes> Micropayments are just an interesting internet idea, we should be well-aquainted if we can. I'm brainstorming, not proposing. [00:31] <+Nuitari> we can do it for contributions much more easily then memberships [00:31] <+Eyes> 10$ a year is a a good base level. Less than a dollar a month! [00:33] <~MikkelPaulson> PPDE is 50€/yr I think [00:35] <~MikkelPaulson> anything else or shall we adjourn for the evening? [00:35] <+Nuitari> after 20 or 25$ it becomes a contribution [00:35] <~MikkelPaulson> I know it's getting pretty late for those of you out east [00:35] <+Zblewski> I don't think there's anything [00:36] <+Nuitari> I <3 my job btw [00:36] <+Eyes> I've got one last idea, I want to introduce if I can [00:38] <~MikkelPaulson> be my guest [00:39] <+Eyes> Increasing wiki coverage to failed PPCA motions, referencing when they were introduced or mentioned, why they failed, updated to include interesting variations on the idea that arise out of related talk page discussions. [00:39] <+Nuitari> I don't mind if someone wants to handle it [00:40] <+Eyes> To refine old ideas, and provide a big collection of interesting ideas so we can always be on our game. [00:41] <+Eyes> It might require some additional dedication out of some members, but it will show us as a thoughtful party with a lot of ideas. Which we really are! [00:41] <+Eyes> You're all so awesome for being involved with the Pirate Party [00:42] <+Eyes> What a cool cause. You guys rule. [00:42] <+Nuitari> :) [00:42] <~MikkelPaulson> well, the minutes do include what motions failed [00:44] <+Eyes> We could link back and forth between minutes and those articles to provide sources. [00:45] <+Eyes> I may try to push for something like this in the future, I'm just testing the waters. I want to focus on press releases and the Animation project for now. [00:45] <+Eyes> By the way: if you can, please contribute to that project. It's in the forums. [00:46] <+Eyes> I think it will help out the party. [00:46] <~MikkelPaulson> for sure [00:46] <~MikkelPaulson> I'm excited to see what will come of it [00:47] <~MikkelPaulson> and on that note [00:48] <~MikkelPaulson> meeting adjourned

Also see Minutes and Votelog

Return to list